Best of Berko & Beyond (So Far)

[00:00:00] Ben: Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of Berko and Beyond. Last week, we hit double figures, episode 10. So this week, of course, it’s episode 11. We thought we’d do something a little bit different, actually. A lot of podcasts that launch don’t even make it past episode three, so we’re pretty proud of, we are pretty proud of ourselves, once we put our teeth back in, to have made it this far.

It takes a lot of effort to put a podcast together, and consistency is the key. Much like business life, of course. So in this episode, a little compilation of some of our favorite bits from the first 10 episodes of the show. Those favorite bits, hopefully are good business advice too, so this is the episode that you should be sharing.

Please share it with your friends and say, “Hey, I’ve been listening to this podcast. This is a compilation of the first 10 episodes, and you should listen to it too. Like and follow.” Maybe you could come up with something a little bit more straightforward. A more concise one-liner, if you will. Hey, let’s just get on with the show.

Let’s dive in.

[00:01:10] Ben Morton: I think over the last 20, 30 years, there’s been a lot of very good business administrators, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re great leaders. 

[00:01:18] Ben: So do we need a, for two things there, do we need a checklist for things that we’re gonna, you know, be saying we don’t like, uh, in this episode? So, you know we’ve got various entrepreneurship,

[00:01:27] Ben Morton: Yeah, I don’t wanna, I, I could be coming across really badly and just talking about all the things that are wrong. 

[00:01:30] Ben: Yeah. I mean, it’s episode four of a podcast we’re trying to grow, so perhaps we should be a bit more positive about some of these things. But being positive, what I’ve always been, always noticed and been impressed with the way that you talk about leadership, is that whole piece about it being a privilege to lead people.

Because I think a lot of people out there, particularly small business owners, and this podcast isn’t just aimed, uh, at small business owners, it’s business owners and leaders in general, and entrepreneurs. Um, but as a small business owner, you then, you might, you might be an accidental leader.

[00:02:06] Ben Morton: Yeah. 

[00:02:06] Ben: So how, how do you get around that? I mean, I’m an accidental leader and, um, you know, there are people in the room who I lead who would probably be able to tell you a better job, better about how I do that job. But that again, that’s a whole other podcast episode. Maybe we should do that, Fred. Um, yeah, so what about those accidental leaders and,

[00:02:25] Ben Morton: So can one swear on the Berko and Beyond podcast?  

[00:02:28] Ben: We will probably bleep it out, because there’s a little, as you well know, on these podcasts, you have to put a little mark, say if it’s expletive. Well, I mean, so I’d, I’d rather not, but, you know, give us an idea.

[00:02:38] Ben Morton: It, it’s only a little one, so you can beep it out. Like, for those accidental leaders or small business owners, I mean, one of the things is, is to give a ****, if you put the beep in. Right? So I, I touch on this later, and you’ve just kindly mentioned it’s one of the things that stands out about me for you.

But the reason I have always said- privilege and responsibility to lead, and this goes back for me to, to my time in, in the military, right? But every single person we lead and manage or who works for us in our small business is the most important person in someone else’s life, right? Everyone we lead is someone’s mum, dad, husband, wife, partner, son, daughter.

If none of those apply, like, everyone’s got a best friend. So everyone we lead is the most important person in someone else’s life. And therefore, what we do as leaders, managers, business owners, business administrators, it doesn’t just affect the people that work for us 9:00 to 5:00, Monday to Friday, or whatever the working hours are.

Like, it has an impact on what they’re like when they go home, and then that has a knock-on effect to, to their family, right? I’m experiencing this firsthand now. My wife is working in a business. Her boss, let’s say, isn’t the best leader, putting it very politely. And the amount of days my wife Jo will come home in a really kind of bad mood, kind of upset, agitated, or whatever, that spills over to me and my daughter.

[00:04:10] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:04:10] Ben Morton: And that changes the dynamic in our house. And that’s her boss directly impacting me and my daughter. Um, so that’s why I say it’s privilege and responsibility, and just understand that we, we, we’re leading other human beings, and how we behave, like, matters. If we treat people well, if we give a about them- 

[00:04:32] Ben: Well, you can replace that word with care, actually, can’t you?

[00:04:35] Ben Morton: Yeah. 

[00:04:35] Ben: And there’s- 

[00:04:36] Ben Morton: Yeah, totally.

[00:04:37] Ben: it, not only is it care, but is it a duty of care, right? 

[00:04:39] Ben Morton: Yeah. Yeah, like duty of care we tend to think of more from health and safety, right? I’m in this podcast studio. Your duty of care is to make sure the lights don’t fall down on me. But to your point, care, yeah, absolutely care, and some people might go, “Well, that’s soft.”

But it’s not, right? If you work for me and you know I care about you, you’re gonna come to work more motivated, more inspired, do a better job. If you get a sense I couldn’t give a about you or I don’t care, then how invested are you gonna be in kind of my, my, my business? How you’re not gonna be that invested in growing, like, profit or the bottom line for me if I don’t treat you nicely.

[00:05:15] Ben: No, definitely not. Um, and I guess that then leads to the building of the team as well and, and how that cascades down. Or, as I was talking to someone about the other day, the, the, the, the bottom up. So, um, we were talking about org charts and, that in those organizational charts, how, uh, one, one of these business owners had just redone theirs.

And because they’d changed some of the roles actually and that was then being put up all around the building so that everybody could see, you know, where the responsibilities were, who was part of what team. And then people were like, “Why am I down on the bottom? Why is this down on the bottom?”  And actually one of the first things we said was, “Actually, flip it.” “Put the leaders at the bottom- 

[00:05:55] Ben Morton: Totally.

[00:05:56] Ben: And then it’s, you know, a bottom up.” 

[00:05:58] Ben Morton: Yeah, that’s how I draw them all the time. I draw a little cartoon stick man at the bottom, or stick person at the bottom like that. They are there to support everybody else and enable them to do whatever they need to do for your customers or, or, or whatever.

A leader’s job is to support and enable people to do the work. It’s not to be at the top dumping on everybody. 

[00:06:22] Ben: So where do you think people get it wrong? Is there a, well, when you go into organizations and when you work with individuals, is the one, obviously there’s the giving a care- 

[00:06:33] Ben Morton: Yeah

[00:06:34] Ben: side of things. Is there anywhere else where you kind of see repetitive mistakes, shall we say? 

[00:06:40] Ben Morton: I think one of the biggest ones, um, which I was really fortunate because at 15, I think, when I decided I wanted to join the Army, a major from the Army recruiting team came in. It was kind of partly interview, partly preparing me to go off and do a two-day assessment to decide whether I had leadership potential or not, and he taught me this then.

But also, you mentioned the podcast I, I used to host, I probably interviewed, I’m gonna say around 150 to 200 MDs, CEOs. Yeah. So you start to notice themes, right? Like you, you were with this. And the theme I noticed was the same as this piece of advice that I got given at, at 15, which is basically leaders don’t need to have all of the answers.

And so many of the guests on my show said, “The moment I really got comfortable as a leader and started to have more impact as a leader was the moment I realized it’s not my job to have all of the answers.” And to your point around building the team, right? Why would you go to all that effort of bringing in brilliant, amazing people and then micromanage the hell out of them, don’t listen to their ideas ’cause you think, “I know best”?

Like, employ bright people and then, like, listen to them. Like, what are your ideas? But many of us think that’s a sign of weakness, right? If you go, “I don’t know,” then, “Oh, God, I’m, I, I’ve failed.” But no, actually if you say, “Look, guys, this is the challenge. This is what we need to achieve. Right now I’m not entirely sure, like, what, what do you think?” What do you think?

[00:08:13] Ben:  Yeah. 

[00:08:14] Ben Morton: That shows, like, “Actually, I’m comfortable in my skin. I value you ’cause I wanna hear your input. Then you get the ideas, and you carry on and lead and execute. But that is one of the things where individual leaders get it, get it really wrong 

[00:08:27] Ben: And I think for leaders a lot of the time it is, uh, just keep quiet at that, you know, at that table.

We were talking about this the other day again with some people I was with about just being quiet at the table, ’cause you, the whole thing leaders eat last, it’s leaders speak last. 

[00:08:43] Ben Morton: Yeah. 

[00:08:43] Ben: So then that way you, the qui- you’ll get the quietest people at the table, who often have the better ideas, the best ideas.

[00:08:50] Ben Morton: Totally

[00:08:50] Ben: Who just don’t feel, uh, f- feel as if they can share them in those kind of forums. 

[00:08:55] Ben Morton: Yeah. ‘Cause the other thing with that as well is if leaders speak first, if I say what I think and I’ve got my team around the table, a lot of my team will be sitting there going, “Well, Ben said this is what he thinks, so clearly that’s what he thinks and that’s what he wants us to do, so I’m not gonna suggest another way.”

Whereas if you let other people go first before you’ve sort of biased their opinion, you, they’re gonna speak more, more freely. So yeah, I think you’re right, leaders speak last and eat last. 

[00:09:22] Gordon Hall: It’s a line I’ve used many, many, many times and in many, many contexts. Um, you, I mentioned a couple of moments ago about getting outside of your comfort zone.

[00:09:30] Ben Morton: Yeah. 

[00:09:31] Gordon Hall: And, and I think we are more comfortable in our comfort zone. Um, and I, I believe that many businesses are held back by those, those little things that we should push that are just that little, not to be ridiculous, ’cause, you know, the comfort zone analogy is just a little bit outside. Going to the gym again, you push yourself just a little bit further, little bit further, little bit further.

If you go in there and just go, “Whoa”, then you, you’ll injure yourself and you, and you, and you can’t cope. So be constantly just going a little bit more, little bit more, little bit more. And I think if you get into a habit of doing that, you will grow both in business and in life. Um, so I’m very passionate about that.

And as a coach, guess what? Like a sports coach, they would always just push you a little bit more. And, it’s very easy to stay in our comfort zone. 

[00:10:17] Ben: So I’m wondering if that should actually be part of a business owner or business leader’s job description, being outside, you know, a certain percentage of your time being outside your comfort zone.

Get comfortable being uncomfortable.  

[00:10:28] Gordon Hall: But what’s gonna happen if you don’t? 

[00:10:32] Ben: Probably what you were describing has happened to those businesses that do that, rather than do that. 

[00:10:39] Gordon Hall: Yeah. 

[00:10:39] Ben: Yeah? 

[00:10:40] Gordon Hall: Yeah. What’s gonna happen if you don’t go down the gym, metaphorically? What’s gonna happen if you don’t try something different?

What’s gonna happen, look, innovation is everywhere, um, at the moment, and it’s always been there. But more small, medium-sized businesses are now getting CIOs on their, on their C-suite, the Chief Innovation Officer, you know, to, cause it’s so important, um, that it, in businesses are changing quickly.

So that. But that, again, that’s uncomfortable for people. Try these things. You have to, have to move out there. So whatever discomfort is for you, rather than, “Ugh, that’s uncomfortable,” okay. And that’s why that line, “Get comfortable being uncomfortable,” is an important line. It’s just, it’s a line, but actually it’s very, there’s a lot in it. Get comfortable being. Because if you’re not, you’re gonna stagnate, you’re not gonna push yourself, and it’s really important. So it’s not gonna go away. The discomfort isn’t gonna go away. You just have to get comfortable with it. You know that when I go to the gym, well, that’s gonna hurt, but actually I feel good about that.

When I know, when I come to a peer group meeting, ooh, that’s gonna push me. Great. I feel better. I’ve grown as a result of all that. There’s a lot in that, in that statement. 

[00:11:58] Azim Shah: The conversations are so important, especially now. Like, it’s, I think there’s a big disconnect with people generally. 

I think social media plays a part in that.

You know, like, I went to one of those networking events recently, and it was great. You know, I haven’t been to one, so for me, it was really nice to go and meet people, like-minded people, and just chat. You know, just, iIt was just general chat. But when I was younger, you know, this wasn’t about, you know, going and meeting girls or whatever.

I used to love going and speaking to people in the pub or, like, chatting to people, and now I find that it’s not just because I’m older, because I still have that capacity. You know, I founded a networking event and I’ve been to stuff with you. You know, we’ve done a couple of jobs together. That networking aspect or just speaking to people, I’ve still got it in me.

I still enjoy it a lot, and you don’t do that as much when you just go out and about, and not a lot of people do it. I find that it’s a bit, it’s a rarer to have that with people. You don’t get people coming up to you as much as they used to and being like, “Hey, how’s it going?” And chatting away. You know, people are in their own little circles, which is fine, and I get that. But doing this sort of thing, for me, it scratches that itch. And it’s, uh, it’s the social aspect as well as, um, the conversations. You know, I think it’s all, like I keep saying, you know, it’s building the community, working with people, and- 

[00:13:13] Ben: Yeah, and I think that a lot of those conversations that you have at those networking events can just, they’re not, let’s be honest, it’s no good for me and it’s no good for you. There’s, on a human level it might be. Oh, it’s, you know, it’s nice, and you get to know people, and that there might be a slower burn of a collaboration somewhere down. But there are people that you end up talking to at those network events where it’s like, what’s the point?

Again, not, not, it’s for you, for, for them or for me. And actually, um, a business coach that I went to once, one of the, one of his best pieces of advice was you, you go to a network. I’m not gonna remember it correctly either now, but it was basically, if the conversation’s not gonna be of any worth to you or to them, then just move on because otherwise it is just a, “Ah,” you know, “Oh, the weather’s nice.”

And at the end of the day, you’re running a business. Your time is money, so don’t spend it, and, and I think you and I talk about this now with having young kids as well. Uh, you know, Zach is younger than Connie and Nate, but, um, I’d rather be spending time with them than talking with someone about the weather that I’m not gonna be doing business with.

[00:14:26] Debbie Shrimpton: No, I think it was the process that made me think, “What, what do I need to grow my business?” Um, I knew I wanted to grow it, but I didn’t really know how to, and I think I was just plodding along 

[00:14:40] Lisa Timms: Yeah.

[00:14:40] Debbie Shrimpton: doing what I was doing every day, but not actually focusing on what I needed to grow. 

[00:14:47] Beccy Brotherton: Yeah. I, again, I agree. I’ve got, feel like it’s just, like, the same process. Um, with doing, uh, the business plan and pitching, you’re learning what you really need. I mean, I, I kind of had an idea of what I needed, and that I’d spent so long trying to do everything by myself and not really getting very far with it at all, because that’s not really what I excel in, you know?

[00:15:13] Ben: I think it’s a common thing for people who are starting out in business as well. Certainly, you know, I alluded to it earlier, like, you don’t know, you, you know what you know, and you don’t know what you don’t know until, either until someone tells you or you read a book about it, and there’s plenty of those around at,  

[00:15:28] Beccy Brotherton: Mm.Yeah

[00:15:28] Ben: uh, these days on, on what you can do and which, which kinda path you choose. But, um, there’s plenty of support in, in entering a competition like this, and the collaborations that you come up with afterwards, I guess, as well. 

[00:15:41] Debbie Shrimpton: Yeah. I think when you’re starting out, you’re very much trying to do everything on your own, and then it’s, it was almost accepting that, okay, I’m not gonna be a guru of developing and building an entire website platform, and it’s recognizing the areas that you do need some help and support and advice in, and realizing that you haven’t got to be an expert in everything to make it all work. 

[00:16:04] Ben: I was talking to the CEO of a national charity who, and the numbers just to keep the doors open. Oh, geez, just to keep the, uh, the staff, as you say, because of not just because of national insurance, but because you, you’ve got a talented team, and you need to, it’s like any other business. You need to attract talent, right?

[00:16:05] Wendy Lewington: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:16:06] Ben: But the numbers involved in keeping it, something like that going, and no, 

[00:16:29] Wendy Lewington: Our biggest cost is staff. 

[00:16:30] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:16:31] Wendy Lewington: Um, and I don’t have an issue with that at all. Um, and I, I think the days where people think people that work for charities are all volunteering has changed. We do have a number of very, very good volunteers. But if we don’t pay our staff well, we’re not gonna get expertise and we’re not gonna be able to make a difference. Also, we talk about cost of living crisis. We talk about supporting people in poverty and social exclusion. I cannot have our staff needing to use a food bank. Um, you know, that would just, that would be horrendous for me as a CEO for that.

So we need to make sure we support our staff. But we also need to ensure we support our staff around their mental health as well. Um, we use, uh, uh, an employee assistance program, but we also make sure our staff have access to also professional supervision. Um, we always make sure our staff take their leave.

We have mental health wellbeing days where we get our staff together. Um, all those things are really important to ensure our staff come to work and not get burnt out. 

[00:17:39] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:17:39] Wendy Lewington: But I also need to ensure my leadership team don’t get burnt out as well. 

[00:17:44] Ben: We would always recommend is use the profe-, and purely from a business point of view, is, um, the, it, there’s a great book, and I’ve forgotten who’s written it, but it’ll go in the show notes.

Who Not How. So it’s Who Not How. So it’s not, it’s one I’ve recommended to you before that you’ve obviously not read. But it’s not about doing it yourself. There’s a whole thing as a business owner, you can go, “Right,” or, or as a business, “How do we do this? How do we do that? How do we do, we do, do that?

Let’s learn how to run a YouTube channel, and let’s learn how to do web” Or get someone else to do it. And the, uh, video production is, is always a part like that. It’s like, “Well, can we just edit it ourselves?” Or the, actually the classic one is, “If we just shoot some stuff on an iPhone, can you edit it for us?” And it’s like, well, you, I’ll let you answer. If I just shoot some stuff on an iPhone, can you edit it for me? 

[00:18:36] Azim Shah: No.  

[00:18:37] Ben: But why not, Azim? 

[00:18:38] Azim Shah: Absolutely not. It’s a nightmare, and also it won’t look right, and also you haven’t logged the footage properly, and also it looks terrible, and also you probably filmed it terribly, and also it’s gonna take me ages to go through all your terrible footage, and yeah. It’s all those things, as we both know, and- 

[00:18:54] Ben: Yeah. And on a serious note, it is down to the experience of knowing what to shoot, how to frame a shot, what shots match with each other, how to get audio right ’cause video is basically 60% audio, if not more. 

[00:19:09] Azim Shah: But that’s the thing. People will tolerate poor video, and we’re lucky, very fortunate in here with our setup to have, you know, nice cameras and it looks really, really nice. But people will tolerate poor video. They will not tolerate poor audio, because if you can’t hear somebody, they will switch off, especially in this kind of situation. So if you’re recording stuff yourself on a phone, half the time the audio is terrible. And I’ve had people come to me and been like, “Why is my, why does it sound so bad?” Because you’ve recorded it on your phone. There’s no need. 

[00:19:39] Christy Evans: Rising costs. Um, and I think, yeah, large and small businesses, the cost of doing businesses, um, the cost of employing as well, uh, with national insurance, uh, going up. I think people and businesses are, you know, are really considering their costs, where they’re gonna spend.

Um, I think bigger businesses, they can often have a problem with recruitment, so how do they find the right people and then how do they retain them? Um, so that’s a real sort of, you know, tricky one that, you know, for larger businesses. Um, and you see all sorts of different, um, support and initiatives that they sort of go through to try and get the right talent. And that isn’t necessarily these days just about the money and the wage. It can also be about the package, flexible working, your ethos and ethics, your sustainability, and particularly within the young workforce, because they really care about where they work and who they work f- you know, for, and they can choose.

[00:20:44] Ben: I heard a great thing recently about your website is not just selling to your customers, but your website should be selling to your, your poten- your future talent. Uh, and exactly along those lines, that depending on the generation that you’re talking to or looking to attract, it’s not just about the wages.

Uh, or it could be about what, what, like you say, it’s about the culture, but that culture could be something really as simple as, you know, breakfast is, is bought in every Friday for everybody to get around and chat and, and mingle in and so that they, they feel a, a part of something. 

[00:21:18] Christy Evans: Absolutely. I mean, office environment, you see some larger businesses on the estate that have really gone well and beyond with their, their HQs. That when you sort of walk round there, you just go, “Wow, I wanna work here.” It really encourages employees to come into the office, whereas I think post, um, COVID, everyone was quite nicely working from home and didn’t wanna make that shift. Uh, so, um, businesses like, uh, Atlas Copco, um, who, uh, uh, yeah, have, have basically redone their whole offices.

Um, and I think that’s another key thing that plays is about wellness in the workplace. We’ve seen a real shift on that post-COVID, um, that employers, um, really sort of taking care on the wellness, um, in terms of, uh, sort of training and development, things like menopause, you know, in the workplace. Um, and just providing, you know, the right facilities for people.

You know, little breakout rooms, outdoor spaces, as well as all the nice stuff that you mentioned in terms of, you know, free donuts and a, you know, barbecue every now and again. 

[00:22:24] Leigh Cohen: What it is, is talking, it’s the same thing. Talking about us, talking about ourselves, which is really what I’ve just done here.

[00:22:31] Ben: Well, yes, but that’s allowed on a, it’s on a, on a podcast. On a business podcast, that’s allowed. 

[00:22:36] Leigh Cohen: Uh, okay. Um, so yeah, I see it all the time. And in fact, I’ve seen it through my professional career in enterprise, in the biggest companies. I’ve seen it in the smallest companies, and we all do it. We all think that everyone’s wants to hear what we do.

[00:22:51] Ben: Yeah, so I, we’ve talked about this before. I refer to it as, uh, people who just wee all over themselves on their websites. So it’s, “We do this, and we do that, and we do the other.” They don’t talk about their customer or their customer’s problem. Uh, they talk about their grandfather who’s been in business for gazillions of years that means absolutely nothing to what they’re actually selling 

[00:23:12] Leigh Cohen: It’s just missing a trick, and yeah, it’s, it’s a, it’s a real shame.

What, what, what you want to see is people talking, people who see the content. You know? Marketers talk about this, that when, when, when you, when you see content, whether it’s on Instagram or TikTok or whatever it, LinkedIn, you wanna see something and go, “That’s me.” Like, “You’re talking to me. I get it,” and stop someone in the tracks.

You know, the sad truth that the majority of the time we’re looking at this stuff, you know, on socials or Instagram, whatever it might be, we’re in bed or sitting on the toilet or whatever it is, scrolling, right? And just scrolling and scrolling in a sort of weird hypnosis state.

And actually, you know, what you want to do is get to that point where you’re going, “Hang on a moment, he’s talking directly to me, and I get it.” Right? And if someone’s sitting there talking about themselves, it’s just scroll past. No one cares. But if they’re talking to you, I’m mentioning something which is dear to you, then you’re gonna go, “Ah, that stopped me in my tracks.”

[00:24:24] Ben: And you actually see that way more now in social adverts and social posts, where it starts off, “Business owners of Berkhamsted- 

[00:24:33] Leigh Cohen: Yes.

[00:24:34] Ben: make sure you’re listening to the Berkhamsted Build Podcast,” or whatever it is. Actually, I should do one of those, shouldn’t I? I should do a couple of those promos. Um, but yeah, and that is, that’s literally calling out. You don’t get much more niche than that. 

[00:24:46] Leigh Cohen: Yeah. 

[00:24:46] Ben: Um

[00:24:47] Leigh Cohen: Yeah, I mean, it’s a very clear

[00:24:48] Ben: Well, you do get more niche than business owners, but, uh, you see, see a lot of stuff on social now that is accountants. 

[00:24:55] Leigh Cohen: Yeah. 

[00:24:55] Ben: Have you got, 

[00:24:56] Leigh Cohen: yeah- And that’s very specific targeted advertising, but the, and so you can do that. You can really drill, you can drill into some ridiculous niches.

If you’re even looking for a specific one person, you could create, spend money on an advertising campaign to reach that person, and the advert would say, “Hi, Ben. If you’re listening to this, this is just for you.” And, and my God, you’re gonna get that person’s attention, right? 

[00:25:19] Ben: Which we’re not far off, and some stuff’s already happening, particularly in cold outreach and that, with using AI and other bits and bobs.

[00:25:27] Leigh Cohen: Exactly. 

[00:25:28] Ben: Don’t know what other bits and bobs are big. It’s the AI. 

[00:25:30] Leigh Cohen: Yeah, 

[00:25:30] Ben: Yeah. Uh, but yeah, putting all those, those tech stacks together to do those. 

[00:25:34] Leigh Cohen: But the, uh, but the, the key is then the messaging that comes behind that target needs to be specific. And whether that’s on a website, whether that’s on what you’re talking about, whether that’s on an outreach or even in a proposal.

You know, you’ve gone down the line, you’re now at proposal stage to a client- The first thing I see in those proposals is me, me, me, me, me. Here’s all the customers we work with. Let me talk about all the stuff I wanna talk about, uh, about us, our customers, what we do, how we do it. None of it, whereas I’m just 

[00:26:02] Ben: going to page five for the price, right?

[00:26:03] Leigh Cohen: It’s just like tell me the cost.

[00:26:04] Ben: What’s the cost? 

[00:26:06] Leigh Cohen: But if, if I’m really like, laser focused on you, your problems, that I understand your problems, I understand the implications of those problems, and I understand, I’m getting across how we’re going to address them, then you, it’s gonna be a lot more attention.

[00:26:22] Gordon Hall: Commercial sales negotiation, which is very much where my, my, my world was for many years, keep asking questions. Yeah. Though ask questions as a coach would. So rather than, you know, say, “What’s holding you back? What do I need to do differently?” Um, great questions when you’re trying to close, close some work.

Um, and when people do say, “I’m gonna work with you”, ask them the question, why? What’s the best bit of research you’ll ever get? Um, because the point when you talked about referrals earlier on and I think it’s quite an interesting area. Um, if you think about anybody you’re working with, what’s the point of time when you’re most impressed with them?

It’s usually quite early. So if you’ve got a, you’re working with a new supplier, I don’t know, you’re working with a new, a new builder or somebody, it doesn’t really matter, anybody that you’re working with, you’re probably most impressed right at the beginning of the relationship, and that’s the point when, when they should be asking you, “Can you recommend me to others?”

People often don’t like to give referrals or be asked, asked to be given referrals until, oh, they’ve been working with somebody for five years. Ask at the point of maximum wow. 

[00:27:38] Ben: Mm. 

[00:27:39] Gordon Hall: Um, and I think it’s, we very commonly don’t do that ’cause we’re a bit nervous to. Um, so I’m not sure that answers your question, Ben. But I’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent there, but,

[00:27:49] Ben: No, no, but it, it, 

[00:27:49] Gordon Hall: Well, that’s what often happens, it’s really powerful to, to, when times are hard, you, you, you just have to work harder, you push harder. It’s outside your comfort zone, but that’s where great things happen, as I always say. 

[00:27:59] Ben: I think that’s the other thing of having a, having a coach or having a, a peer group as well, is that you keep being, you’re constantly reminded of those things because they’re the things that are easy to forget. Particularly that thing of, uh, I, that just reminded me again, we’ve just delivered a, we’ve just delivered a job. I haven’t asked for the referral. 

[00:28:20] Gordon Hall: Why, why did you work with us? What did you like about the piece of work? Well, this, you did that great, Ben, which you always do, but you did that great, you did that.

Okay. Well, look, we’re a g- a s- a small growing business. You want more work. Um, and tell people, “We’ve got space.” 

[00:28:34] Ben: Mm. 

[00:28:35] Gordon Hall: And often we don’t do that. 

[00:28:37] Ben: No, we don’t. 

[00:28:37] Gordon Hall: Um, you know, we, uh, I, I won’t mention names ’cause you and I were talking about it the other day. There’s a local business who, who, who I work with, and he just told his clients that he’s got a bit more space.

I said, “Have you?” “Gosh, you’re so good. I would imagine you’re so full.” And he told, the next time I met him, “So yeah, we’ve got a full order book now.” 

[00:28:57] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:28:57] Gordon Hall: Just be- Just because he told people that he wanted work. And, and it’s so obvious that we don’t do it, and particularly when you’re just doing your first piece of work, that’s when people are most, usually most impressed.

[00:29:11] Corinne Wallington: Biggest mistake is overthinking, which is a really hard one to not do. 

[00:29:16] Ben: I don’t know what, I have no idea what you mean. 

[00:29:19] Ben: Who would, who would overthink?

[00:29:20] Corinne Wallington: Who would overthink, like, a short 

[00:29:21] Ben: post on social media that.

[00:29:23] Corinne Wallington: You just gotta put it out there. Everyone might not see. Like, that’s, and I do it all the time. I mean, actually, I, um, did it a couple of weeks ago, and then I, luckily, I was doing it as a collaborative post with someone, so I sent it to them and was like, “I’m not sure about this post. I think it’s a bit rubbish, but tell me what’s wrong with it, and then I’ll change it before I post it.”

And she was like, “It’s great.” And then I did put that message out to our community to be like, “Just ask each other,” because actually that’s all you need. You need someone to break your overthinking and say, “What are you getting worried about?”  

[00:29:52] Ben: You need to get over yourself. 

[00:29:54] Corinne Wallington: Get over yourself. And that’s, and I think that is probably the other big piece of advice, or maybe the mistake, depending on which way you spin it, that people get too focused on themselves, and they think too much. And actually, something that I learned, um, about content is it’s not about you, it’s about your audience. 

[00:30:12] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:30:13] Corinne Wallington: Um, and it’s what do they wanna know. So you might not wanna share your face. You might not want to, you know, talk about certain things, but actually they might need that to buy from you. Um, it’s about making 

[00:30:24] Ben: the, your customer. It’s no, the hero, isn’t it? They’re the hero in this scenario. It’s a very much a Donald Miller Building a StoryBrand kind of view on it.

[00:30:32] Corinne Wallington: Um, but if you can get over that, if you can sort of think, “Actually, it’s not about me, it’s about them and what they need to know,” and focus on that, um, there’s a good book, but I can’t remember what it’s called. I’ll find it. 

[00:30:47] Ben: We’ll, we’ll find it afterwards, and we’ll put it in the show notes. 

[00:30:48] Corinne Wallington: Um, it’s basically about, you know, uh, always, always answering your audience’s questions.

[00:30:54] Ben: Ah, I know the book. 

[00:30:55] Corinne Wallington: Yeah. 

[00:30:55] Ben: I’m looking over there ’cause it might be over there. If not, it’s in the office, and it is called, oh, no, this is gonna, I might actually run off the podcast set. 

[00:31:03] Corinne Wallington: It’s the guy who 

[00:31:04] Ben: did 

[00:31:04] Corinne Wallington: the 

[00:31:04] Ben: pool. Yeah. You Ask They Answer. 

[00:31:06] Corinne Wallington: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:31:07] Ben: You Ask They Answer. Well done. It is. It’s a brilliant book. Uh, and we’ll put that link in the, the show notes as well. 

[00:31:11] Corinne Wallington: Yeah. And it’s just a, it’s a good perspective to remember. Because I think that’s where people overthink it, because they’re thinking too much about themselves. 

[00:31:19] James Lark: I think it’s important and, and, you know, not turning money, not wanting to turn money away, but it’s having that authenticity and the integrity behind that as well. It’s having a business that would want to be like, “Actually, I really value what you’re trying to do.” It’s not just a signature on a check. It’s actually, “I really love what you’re doing. Like Lisa was saying about the values that we have as a collection of people, about what we’re trying to do. It’s not just a signature on the check. It’s, you know, it’s someone saying, “Yeah, actually I really love what you’re doing. I really support what you’re trying to do for the community.” That’s important as well. 

[00:31:50] Claire Gillespie: Mm. Yeah. I think there’ll be different levels, won’t there? There’ll be some businesses that just think, “You know, I, I value this. I, I want the community to have this, um, so I’m just gonna write you a check.” 

[00:32:02] Ben: Mm. Yeah. 

[00:32:02] Claire Gillespie: And that will be fantastic. And then there’ll be other businesses that say, “I value this, and actually we’d like to be more involved and we want to collaborate with you.”

You know, perhaps they could, their business has the name of one of the sections, or they could have the courtyard space could be, you know, there’s ways that we can work together. And as, as the, um, Our Heath Barn project continues, there’ll be more and more ways that they can get involved.

You know, is that, um, teenage programme, or the mother and baby programme, or all these different, um, initiatives that we come up with, they can be the ones that help sponsor that bit. So as it develops, there’ll be more opportunities, but right now it really is coming down to hard cash. 

[00:32:45] Ben: Yeah.

[00:32:46] Lisa Timms: And get, get behind this because really, you know, the money is one thing, but the more that we can show the council we raised this much money, but actually look at all these different individual companies and people that spoke on our behalf, that were out there being ambassadors for us- that were, um, that’s really important as well. You know, money is one thing, but showing the council that the community got behind it, there’s a lot of power in that. 

[00:33:16] Ben: Well, there you go. I hope you enjoyed that look back at the first 10 episodes of Berko and Beyond. There are loads more to come, and we’d love you to be a guest on the podcast.

Drop us an email, podcast@Berkoandbeyond.com, and tell your friends. Like and subscribe. It really helps the show.