Keep Clients Happy & Loyal For Years with Melanie Harrison

[00:00:00] Melanie: Now I thoroughly believe in the ability to sprinkle a little bit of magic dust on something for somebody. That takes you minimal, minimal effort, but delights and surprises them. My parents are very much that way. The husband’s parents are very much that way as well. It’s in the DNA. Some, some of these things, they, they cost nothing to do, you know?

[00:00:22] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:00:23] Melanie: And that to me is what hospitality is about. That to me is the proof in the pudding of why we’ve kept our clients.

[00:00:34] Ben: Before we dive into today’s episode, a quick word from our sponsors, and by sponsors I mean me, because Birkham & Beyond is now proudly brought to you by Chuffed Productions, the video production specialists based right here in Berkhamsted. I know, I’m sponsoring my own podcast. I should have thought of it before, right?

So if you’ve got a challenge in your business that a video could help solve, we’d love to help. Head to our website, chuffed.video to get in touch. Now on with the show. Melanie Harrison, welcome to Birkham & Beyond. 

[00:01:04] Melanie: Well, thank you. 

[00:01:05] Ben: May I call you Mel? 

[00:01:06] Melanie: Yes, you may. 

[00:01:07] Ben: Thank you very much indeed. 

[00:01:08] Melanie: That’s quite all right.

[00:01:09] Ben: Uh, it’s great to have you here, uh, mainly ’cause we get to talk about wine. 

[00:01:12] Melanie: We are. 

[00:01:12] Ben: Uh, and I- Why not? … I quite like wine. I know a little bit about it, not a great deal. Um, you didn’t, well, you knew about it, but didn’t know about it- Not 

[00:01:22] Melanie: really … 

[00:01:22] Ben: and then learnt. I should just ask you the question really, shouldn’t I, and so- Yes.

You have The Wine Place in Amersham. 

[00:01:29] Melanie: Yes, we do. 

[00:01:30] Ben: You’ve been in the hospitality industry for now… 

[00:01:33] Melanie: Ooh, most probably five months. 

[00:01:37] Ben: Okay. Uh, why? 

[00:01:40] Melanie: Um, there’s a lot of reasons really. Um, my husband and I love wine. Right. That, that’s kind of the core of it all. That’s a 

[00:01:48] Ben: good starting point. 

[00:01:49] Melanie: It’s a good starting point.

Um, I’d got slightly bored of walking into restaurants saying, or, or bars or anything along those lines saying, uh, “What would you like to drink, darling?” “Well, I’d like something wet and white and cold.” I, I w- wanted to be a little bit more educated than that. Um, we, um, hung out with a group of people that, who liked wine, started to learn a little bit more.

Um, became confused because it seemed like a bit of a club that you couldn’t really easily get into… unless you know your Barolo from your Bardolino from your Beaujolais from your another wine starting with B. You get my drift. Um, went and got qualified, WSET qualified. It, it’s kind of the globally, global examinations that are recognized everywhere.

Um, really enjoyed what we were doing, um, and started to kind of impromptu share our knowledge with people. Uh- 

[00:02:38] Ben: Whether they wanted it or not. 

[00:02:39] Melanie: Whether they wanted it or not. They, they seemed to be receptive toward it, but m- mostly. Not always, you know. Um, a, a harebrained idea, um, led to, uh, setting up blind wine tasting evenings, um, courtesy of, uh, The Crown in Old Amersham.

Okay. So we are, uh, we, we were, we were there for a little while. We had our little residency there for a little while. Um, which subsequently became a pipe dream of, “Well, this is really good fun actually. We’re really enjoying this.” Um, which became a shop, which became The Wine Place in Old Amersham 

[00:03:12] Ben: So this really is a, a hobby that’s turned into…

Is it a hobby or a- 

[00:03:17] Melanie: I, I feel like hobby is, is doing it a disservice. Okay We, we kind of call it a passion project at the moment, but I, I feel like that, that doesn’t really kind of get it either. Um, the 

[00:03:26] Ben: word obsession is, 

[00:03:27] Melanie: uh- Uh, pretty- … springs to my mind … pretty obsessive about it, yeah. Most conversations in our household roam around the, the kind of wine, viticulture side of things, not, not much else these days.

[00:03:39] Ben: Um- 

[00:03:40] Melanie: But it’s fun. 

[00:03:41] Ben: It’s- So, uh, you… Well, you best explain what a viticulturist is then, to, to start with. I know ’cause I’ve met one, and I tell you, great, I’ve got great viticulturist stories. So, yeah. Or you can 

[00:03:50] Melanie: most probably tell me- 

[00:03:51] Ben: Yeah, yeah … to be 

[00:03:51] Melanie: perfectly 

[00:03:52] Ben: honest. Well, that’s the person that… Yeah, no. 

[00:03:54] Melanie: Yeah, exactly.

Um, no, I, I just, it, it’s become a, a place where, number one, we can, we can share a bit of wine. It’s about getting people together, getting people together to spend some time together, a commitment to spend some time together. Put your phone down, chat with the girls, chat with couples, whoever you’re hanging out with.

Um- It is that, that commitment to spending some time together. It’s something we don’t necessarily get an awful lot of time to do these days. Going to a pub or whatever, you end up chatting to lots of people. It’s, it’s been really nice to see groups come in and just spend time together. But then you’ll get groups that will talk to other groups around the courtyard or inside or, or at the bar, that will work out that they’re neighbors, that they’ve been living two streets away from somebody, and they never knew this person.

And, and now there’s this kind of relaxed little place that they can have a bit of wine, have a bit of chat, get to know people, get to know their neighbor that they never knew or, or whatever. It’s becoming a lot more than just wine, but wine is kind of where it started. 

[00:05:04] Ben: It’s kind of like the, the, the center point, but also l- learning about it, right?

[00:05:08] Melanie: Mm. 

[00:05:08] Ben: And just- 

[00:05:09] Melanie: Absolutely … 

[00:05:10] Ben: learning a bit more about it. 

[00:05:11] Melanie: Absolutely. 

[00:05:12] Ben: So let’s go back to that stage. ‘Cause it’s one thing sitting down and reading a book- 

[00:05:16] Melanie: Yep … 

[00:05:16] Ben: about wine, or watching a YouTube video about wine, or listening to a wine podcast. Yep. It’s another thing to go and do a qualification in, in wine.

Yep. So why? 

[00:05:28] Melanie: Uh, my husband and I are both the kind of people that when we wanna know something, we wanna know something and understand something. And the, the, the most sensible way to do that seemed to be to, to go and get educated by kind of the, the, the recognized people. Um, uh, the education, uh, the, the, the qualifications that you do are, are re- are quite ac- academic. 

So it’s if, if you’re, uh, left bank versus right bank, why is this wine bottle made this way? Why is it… What is the process for orange wine versus kind of a rosé, versus a red, versus low intervention? Lots of weird and wonderful phrases that you’ve most probably heard of at some point that you don’t really understand, and all the rest of it.

So, so it’s starting to, to kind of open you up to that level of education. But I think when you start to, to kind of dig into it, the thing that becomes really interesting is there is so much wine out there. There is so much amazing wine. There’s a fair amount of less amazing wine as well, and it’s about working out actually how to navigate that.

Um, I got told years ago that, uh, “You don’t like Pinot Grigio, you’re a Chardonnay drinker.” And I was like, “Okay, cool. I, I’m, I’m down with that.” I, I, I, I do like Chardonnay. I’m not a massive fan of Pinot Grigio. It just transpires that I’d never found the right Pinot Grigio. And maybe I’d found the right Chardonnay for me.

Actually, my Chardonnay drinking has changed dramatically. I’m no longer a big, buttery, oaky Chardonnay person. I’m now a very minerally, saline French wine drinker rather than a, a New World wine drinker. But when you start to kind of break these barriers down, it’s like most things, I suppose, isn’t it?

It’s like food. It’s like, I don’t know, cars or horses or things like that. When you start to break these barriers down, it can become quite simple and quite straightforward. I’m a firm believer in there is a wine for everybody. There might be a Pinot Grigio and a Chardonnay for everybody. Who knows, you know?

Um, but I, I don’t want, I don’t want people to be told what they should drink. I want people to come and explore and come and bump out of their groove and try something a little bit different. 

[00:07:50] Ben: So on that being told thing- 

[00:07:52] Melanie: Mm-hmm … 

[00:07:53] Ben: th- there’s a bit, there, there is a bit of snobbery around- Oh, 

[00:07:55] Melanie: absolutely … 

[00:07:56] Ben: uh, particularly in sort of higher end restaurants.

Yep, absolutely. Or not even necessarily higher end restaurants. Where do you think those barri- you, you say barriers. Where do you think those barriers come from or what, what p- Um- … what puts those barriers 

[00:08:08] Melanie: up? I, I think part of it is, is kind of heritage of, of the wine industry and, uh, wine has been slowly adopted over time here.

I remember days of my mum and dad having Le Pied à Dor. They had red. They had a white. That was amazing. There’s so much more wine than that now, and I, that’s what I thought wine was in those days. It was expensive. It wasn’t, uh, readily accessible. Now it’s so much more accessible, but there’s too much choice I think now.

You can walk into any supermarket, and you can find some really nice wines in supermarkets. But you can find stuff that isn’t as nice. But because they’ve got marketing funds behind them, some of the bigger companies, you see it everywhere. We won’t mention rosés or anything along those lines because we like to be- Ba, ba

yep, or, um, or Whispering Angels or anything like that. Um, but you, you, you kind of see these, these brands being talked about everywhere, and it’s like, “Okay, that’s cool. That i- that is a Provence rosé. Yes, it is. It is a Cinsault or a Grenache or whatever. Yes, it’s very, very nice.” Equally, I could introduce you to an Austrian rosé that is amazing.

That my, my, my customers come in and, and will try stuff and be like, “I like a Provence rosé.” “Okay, cool. Try a Provence rosé, but I’d really like you to try something else,” because a lot of this is about context Try something in isolation. You’ve got nothing to compare and contrast to. If I give you two wines to try, because I’m gonna do that, I may give you three or four if you’re really lucky at that point, um, you’re looking at it in context and saying, “Oh, well, I, I came in with a perception that I wanted this, but actually that’s much nicer.

What’s that?” It’s Austrian. You’ve most probably never heard of it in your entire life, but you’re most likely gonna go and buy a bottle now and, and share it with your girlfriends or, or with, with your husband, partner, whoever you’ve come in with, you know? It’s about kind of bumping those grooves. But those grooves I, I believe are formed by where we’ve come from with wine and how accessible it was and how it’s gone from Le Pied de or Blue Nun.

We all know Riesling. We all have perceptions of a Riesling. We all have perceptions of a, a Chardonnay as well and all that sort of- Matthias 

[00:10:32] Ben: rosé 

[00:10:33] Melanie: Oh, yeah, absolutely 

[00:10:34] Ben: There’s nothing better with a curry than a Matthias 

[00:10:36] Melanie: rosé. Matthias rosé is lovely, and there’s nothing to be sniffed- 

[00:10:39] Ben: Bottletizer … 

[00:10:39] Melanie: nothing to be sniffed at there.

But I think it, it has just… It, it’s come over time, but now we’ve got this, uh, proliferation of wine everywhere, and we’ve gone from kind of zero to hero. It’s like, “Well, now I’ve got lots. What do I do? I now pick the stuff that I see marketed to me.” Actually, there’s more to it than that, but come along and try some stuff with us.

[00:11:01] Ben: And that’s good marketing, right? Which, you know- It’s great 

[00:11:03] Melanie: marketing, I think … 

[00:11:04] Ben: you know a bit about. We’ll come, we’ll come on- Maybe … come on to that later on maybe. Um, so that, uh, pa- part of the reason you got into it was because the, the sn- the snobbery around it, which I mentioned earlier… as well. So- Very much 

[00:11:16] Melanie: so

[00:11:16] Ben: uh, talk to me a little bit about that, and then, uh, how do we not ta- how, how’s that snobbery av- avoided? Is it just the person? Is it- 

[00:11:27] Melanie: So I think, um, the snobbery is always most likely gonna be there. It’s, it’s one of those things that it’s a collectible these days. People are, are laying down serious money into wine because they’re seeing it as an investment.

So it’s always going to have a, a certain kind of, uh, veneer to it, I suppose, at that point. Um, we’ve, we’ve got this very high-end stuff, or the perception of very high-end up here. We’ve got supermarket or wherever you’re gonna buy your wine from at that point, that is your 4.99, 5.99, sub-10 pound these days.

There, there’s a marked difference. You walk into a restaurant, we… Most people do what I used to do, what I still do sometimes, which is I’ll have a look at things and do you pick the house? Do you pick the cheapest? Do you pick the next thing down? Second most expensive. Second one down. Let’s, let’s kind of treat ourselves today, you know?

I, I think it’s always going to have a little bit of that. It’s like, I don’t know, the saying about cars or, or watches or fashion or anything along those lines. You’ve got a, a certain amount of levels in there. For me, what I wanna do is, is break down some of those levels, but, but make the entry point much easier.

So rather than sticking in the rut of you’ve been told you like a Malbec, or you’ve tried a Merlot and that was okay, and it didn’t make you go, “Ugh, this is horrendous,” that’s what you’re sticking to. I want to give people a place where they can come and we have e- everything available by the glass. And because it’s available by the glass, you can try before you buy.

There is nothing worse than buyer’s remorse, especially if it’s a wine, I feel. So try the wine before you buy it. People come in, “I’d like a rosé.” “Okay, brilliant. I have four. I have a French, I have an Austrian, I have a Spanish, and I have a Sardinian. Where are you on the grand scheme of things? Are you an atypical I like a Provence rosé?

Do you like something that’s a bit saline, a bit minerally, that, that tastes of coastal breezes? Do you like something that’s a bit fruity? Where are you in the grand scheme of things?” And help guide people on that journey. 

[00:13:45] Ben: So when you first opened the shop, uh, th- the, the, i- the, the bar, the shop, what, what, how, how are we, how wanna you call it correctly?

[00:13:54] Melanie: Uh, we call it, we call it a shop. We’re a shop and bar. Um, people do come in and buy from us, um, but it is predominantly a bar. We would say bar first. 

[00:14:03] Ben: So how did people react to the whole- Uh, the, the whole, the different, the different way of, of service. The, uh, yeah, the, the, the Mel style- 

[00:14:14] Melanie: It’s, 

[00:14:14] Ben: well, 

[00:14:15] Melanie: well- “

[00:14:15] Ben: No, don’t.

Try this instead.” No, I- Or- 

[00:14:17] Melanie: It, it’s been interesting. Um, some people entertain the game. Some people are, are, um… know exactly what they want to drink and have seen something on the list that they know and love, and they’re very, very happy to do that. Some people come in and I, I… They’re, I’m, I’m gonna pluck lots of wines out, I suppose now.

Um, “I’m, I’m a sauvignon blanc person, I know what I want.” I’ve got two very nice sauvignon blancs. Weirdly, they’re from the same area, slightly different stories behind them. But actually try one of those. But I can take you off down a path if you’re open to that. I’m not shoving it at people, but a lot of people will come in and look, and they, they do what a lot of people do, which is they glaze a little bit and go…

It’s, it’s kind of the help that’s behind the eyes. And you go, “Okay, where are you gonna start? A rosé or a sauvignon blanc or…” They look at the top of list, and they go, “Well, this thing, this Spanish thing. What’s this?” Try it. 

[00:15:11] Ben: Yep. 

[00:15:12] Melanie: It, it’s just, um… It’s a softly, softly. It’s not a, a forced-upon thing. Um, the only thing I will ever ask is, is if you come in and try something, you try two.

You don’t try one. And, and they’re not, you’re trying 125 ml or anything. You’re literally getting a taster in the bottom of a glass. It’s so you can- You’ve got 

[00:15:31] Ben: margins to think about, right? 

[00:15:32] Melanie: Yeah. 

[00:15:33] Ben: Yeah, 

[00:15:33] Melanie: But, but my bottle’s opened, you know? So you’re having a sniff, you’re having a taste, you’re having a chew and, and seeing what you think of something.

Um, you do it in context. Um, to start off with, lots of people thought there was a catch to it. “

[00:15:47] Ben: But, but, 

[00:15:48] Melanie: but are, are you sure?” “Are you, are you sure you want me to do that one?” Absolutely. Why would you not? I’m, I’m offering you a taste… of something. I don’t understand why more wine places don’t do it.

Who knows? Maybe we’ll start a trend. Maybe we’ll start a trend of people going to other wine places saying, “Can I just try that first?” Who knows? But I wanna give people some confidence as well that actually, um, they can explore without any qualms. They can explore without any judgment I get lots of girls coming in, lots of guys coming in as well, saying, “Can I have a rosé?

Can I have a glass of ice with it as well?” Absolutely. It’s fine. It’s no problem at all. But it is about breaking down some of those barriers, about making it more accessible, but giving you that entry point into something that’s a little bit fun. 

[00:16:34] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:16:35] Melanie: We d- we do a little kind of song and dance show, I suppose, when, when you come and try.

[00:16:39] Ben: And you do, you do a blind, a blind… You can buy a blind bottle, is that right as well? So you can- Uh, 

[00:16:43] Melanie: so we can, we do a couple- So we- where we started was the blind wine tastings. And they’re not blind as in the traditional sense of a, a blind wine tasting, which is guess where the wine is from, and guess what the grape is, and all the rest of that.

I wouldn’t. I would- Nobody would have a clue. It’s red or white usually at that point. Um, we do six wines. Um, they are served blind to you, so they’re served in little Hessian sacks with numbers on them, so you have no idea what you’re trying. You know when it’s poured in your glass whether it is red, white, or rosé.

Um, we do chuck the occasional orange in there, which tends to meld people’s brains a little bit. Um, but we do them in pairs. You, you have context when you’re comparing… and contrasting. But again, it’s about helping you decide whether you like something without the fuss of a label, a grape, a brand, a price point, because you have no idea what’s being served to you at that point.

So you can make a decision based on what’s going on in your nose and your mouth and your brain and, and what that’s telling you at that point. You try it with food. Um, so we, we do all of our blind wasting, wine tastings with, uh, cheese and charcuterie as well. It’s, it’s kind of the easy thing to I’m gonna have a bottle of wine and a massive great big hunk of cheddar or whatever of an evening. Um, but yeah, you sort of get to try stuff in context. Um, um, if, if you decide you don’t like it, there are spittoons. So if you’re like, “I don’t like that,” it’s gonna go in a spittoon. We suggest you find somebody else around the table that likes it, but that’s not wasted … ’cause, you know, it’s always 50/50 these things. But it’s about working out what you like without all the paraphernalia and the noise around you to go, “Oh, but you should like this. Oh, but that’s a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” We’re minxes every now and again. We’ll put two Chardonnays back to back. You’ll get lots of people that are like, “I don’t like a Chardonnay.”

I’ve got a really big buttery oaky one over there, but I’ve got a really nice minerally, saline, crisp French one over there. They’ll love one. They’ll hate the other. They’ll be amazed that they’re both Chardonnay, but it, it’s about dispelling some of those, those rumors and those myths, and those perceptions that we carry around about most things.

We’ve all got perceptions about food. You talk to anybody at Christmas, “I hate Brussels sprouts. I hate this. I hate that. I love this.” Those are most probably childhood perceptions. Now, I’m not sa- necessarily suggesting that childhood perceptions are formed your love or hate of wine, but actually, we, we’ve picked up those things somewhere along the lines.

We’ve all got a story about Pernod or some random spirit that we indulged in in our latter teen years. 

[00:19:20] Ben: Yes. 

[00:19:21] Melanie: You know? We carry those things around with us. I just wanna help bump that groove a little bit. But as I said, it’s now becoming a place to meet and spend time and- 

[00:19:32] Ben: So- … 

[00:19:32] Melanie: just hang out … 

[00:19:33] Ben: so what started as a bit of a, a, a passion project, bit of, um, a side hustle- Yep, side hustle

that started off in The Crown in Amersham with a few, you know, bags over bottles and tasting and whatnot, uh, has grown somewhat. Yes. So what, what was the, the, the tipping point, if you like, to going, “Oh, we’re gonna need our own premises”? ‘Cause the premises that you’re in are rather well-known in Amersham Old Town.

[00:19:58] Melanie: They’re very well-known in Amersham Old Town, and further afield as well. It’s a very well-known family. It’s a very well-known name. Um, so it’s, it’s the old Gilbey’s Restaurant, as was, which, uh, a lot of people will recognize from, uh, Gin. Uh, a lot of people will know it from Berkshire, from, from the place in Eton Riverside.

Um, they were there for 35 years. It was, it was the treat restaurant, I suppose, as it were. Um, if you know the family, which we do, um, you know that, that the premises got opened because they wanted to, uh, introduce people to wine, and the best place to do that was in a restaurant because you would go and have wine in a restaurant.

Um, unfortunately, Mar- Michael, the, uh, father of the family, passed away a few years ago and, uh, Lynn, mother of the family, decided that, um, she would kind of ratchet back on a few things and unfortunately Gilbey’s was one of those. So, I mean, we, we’ve d- lived in the local area. Um, we live on the High Street kind of 400 year- uh, yards away from, from w- uh, our, our shop and bar, as it were.

Um, we’ve been there since, uh, 2014. Um, so we class ourselves as local now. We’re not as local as some of the locals- The local locals, yes … that have been there, that have been there forever and ever, our men. But we kind of class ourselves as local now. Um, and we w- d- we went to Gilbey’s for a treat every now and again.

We’d sit in the corner and have our lovely fish and chip lunch and, and all the rest of it, and it, it, it’s a lovely place. A beautiful courtyard. It’s, I think, one of the best venues. It’s a 400-year-old building. It’s beautiful. Um, and we didn’t want to see it turn into flats or an office or a- Chicken shack- 

[00:21:46] Ben: So you, you’ve kind, you’ve become, almost become custodians of that building as well then.

[00:21:50] Melanie: Yeah. So- I, I feel that we have. Yeah. 

[00:21:52] Ben: So what’s the… Is there, there’s a pressure with that presumably or- 

[00:21:54] Melanie: Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. 

[00:21:55] Ben: And there was a lot of, you know, chatter around what’s it gonna be, and then who’s taken this? Oh, 

[00:22:01] Melanie: what’s going on? What’s 

[00:22:02] Ben: going on in there? There 

[00:22:03] Melanie: are builders in there. 

[00:22:04] Ben: Yes. 

[00:22:05] Melanie: Um, we’ve had, I, I can’t tell you how many people come in and say, “Oh, I just wanna have a look.”

I got, “I used to have my dinner with my parents over there. Have you still got the private room upstairs?” No, we haven’t, by the way. Um, uh, “I used to sit in the back room.” We’ve now turned it into a snug. I, I got engaged there. I, I had my first dinner with my, my, my n- my now husband and his parents, and it’s, it’s a, a, a well-revered place- 

[00:22:32] Ben: Mm-hmm

I 

[00:22:32] Melanie: feel, in, um, Aldershot. We’ve, uh, kept a tiny little piece of, of the yellow paint on the wall. I’m gonna stick a frame around it shortly. Um, we kept some of the old signs. We are… I, I feel that custodians is mostly a good word, actually. I, I feel that we’re custodians of it. I want to see it carry on and, and see it carry on in a similar vein, that, that people could come and spend time there, spend time with family and friends.

But it’s just maybe not with the restaurant side of it now, maybe just the wine side of it now. 

[00:23:05] Ben: Can we just talk a little bit about the bus- the business side of things for this? Because, uh, obviously, those people that were thinking, “Who’s taking over this building?” Hey, don’t panic, everybody.

Someone’s moving in with oodles and oodles of experience of hospit- oh, no, hang on a minute. This is a side hustle. Awkward. Uh, so th- th- there’s that, I guess, but also going into the hospitality industry, your background’s marketing, which we’ll, we’ll cover in a minute. Absolutely. But going into, into the hospitality industry at a time where you read anything about the hospitality industry and it’s like, “Run away, run away.” So why? Why? How? D- what was the- 

[00:23:43] Melanie: Um, so I, I, I suppose there, there were a number of, of trigger points, um, for myself and my husband. Um, he has a name, Rob. He’s not nameless. I was gonna say, like keep referring to him. That would be weird not to talk about him. My husband. My husband. Um- We talked about it a lot before we, we stepped into the, “Right, we’re gonna sign, sign the deal and do the thing.” Um, and it, for us, I think it became a, um, if not now, then when? It’s something we’ve always wanted to do, and it’s something, um, we know ourselves very well, and we know what we’re capable of. Um, we thought we’d do quite well at.

Sounds a bit braggy, maybe. I don’t think it is.

[00:24:26] Ben: No, I don’t think that sounds braggy. It’s- 

[00:24:28] Melanie: Um- 

[00:24:28] Ben: A self-awareness is a good thing … I, 

[00:24:29] Melanie: I, yeah, there’s some self-awareness around the pair of us, and we know what we bring to the party. Um, the custodian piece was actually really important to us. Um, it, it, it was, it was our treat restaurant, as I say, and I, I don’t say that lightly.

Um, we, we’ve eaten in all of the restaurants in Old Amersham and, and further beyond, and, and that one was quite a special little place to us. Um, it’s central to the community. It’s, it’s slap bang in the middle of the town. Um, and we’re, we’re very, um, emotionally tied to where we live. It’s the first place that I think the pair of us have lived in for an extended period of time that we both feel very wedded to, that you have the conversations, “Well, if, if I got run over by a bus, I’d love to see you still being here,” and, and that, that’s kinda how we feel about the place.

We’ve run a business here since 2014. Um, yeah. It, it’s home for us. It, it’s really home. And, and we want the people in our community to understand how we feel about the place that we’ve taken on and what we’re trying to deliver. And we’ve, we’ve had some, uh, anecdotal feedback from some of our locals, which has been, makes you do your happy chair dance, basically.

It’s, it’s lovely, and they’re very proud of what we’re doing, and that makes us… That kind of accelerates things and all the rest of it. So yes, there was, there was no reason for us to get into hospitality. And, and by, by all rights, yeah, we should, we should have run. It, it’s, it’s not, uh- An easy thing to do.

You’ve got customers, for a start. They’re never the easiest things to deal with, and- No, it’s 

[00:26:13] Ben: jumping from B2B 

[00:26:16] Melanie: to B2C- To 

[00:26:16] Ben: b- … is, yeah. 

[00:26:17] Melanie: It’s, it’s not easy. And- 

[00:26:19] Ben: Well, they’re gonna tell me to my face that they don’t- they’re not happy with this. It’s not gonna be in an email. Well, no. 

[00:26:25] Melanie: No, okay It’s not gonna be in an email or anything along those lines.

And yeah, sometimes people will catch you whilst you’re in the middle of, I don’t know, unblocking something, or you’ve just discovered something behind a wall that 400 years ago was brilliant but now is a bit 

[00:26:38] Ben: broken … 

[00:26:38] Melanie: gonna cost you a lot of money to get resolved, and all the rest of it. Yes, we’ve inherited a building that’s 400 years old, and it’s been empty for a couple years.

So I d- it, it, it wasn’t an easy thing to start off with, and it’s kind of two steps forward, three to the side, a little bit of a cha-cha-cha, and then you move forward again. 

[00:26:57] Ben: Have you found that people are sympathetic towards that? And that, that they can see that you, you know, the, you, you’ve got, you know, there’s a hell of an investment there as well, isn’t there, for…

in the building and, and, and the fact that you’re wanting to rescue it for everyone, kind of. 

[00:27:12] Melanie: I think people are understanding when they engage a little bit. 

[00:27:19] Ben: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:20] Melanie: If you’re just… If, if somebody’s just coming in for wine, and, “I just wanna grab my bottle,” or, “I just wanna go and sit outside, I don’t really need to chat with you,” and that’s fine.

That, that… I, I have no problem with that. I’m not going to turn those people away at all. But I think when you start to understand the, the people a little bit more, um, um, w- we, we are as engaging as we can be. And when people walk in, everybody gets the same welcome. If we know you, if we recognize you, uh, you- you’ll get slightly more of a, “Hey, you’ve been in before.”

Mm. “Okay, so you know how the game works, right? So we can test and tell, we can have a go around.” Let’s get straight into this. Let’s get, let’s get involved, you know? I think, um- If, if people know us a little bit and start to engage with us a little bit, and I would like to think that, that we’re kind of opening that up for people, there, there will very quickly become a conversation which is, “So how long have you been in hospitality for?”

Well, since the 6th of March this year. Yes, we’ve both had jobs in hospitality before, many, many years ago. But I feel that our normal day-to-day job kind of lends itself quite well to what we’re doing now. Um, so by rights, yes, we should have run. But by rights also, I think we’re quite well attuned to delivering a good experience.

[00:28:40] Ben: Speaking about the normal day-to-day job, I mean, it’s not normal, is it? Marketing. What is, what is normal- Is marketing normal? … 

[00:28:46] Melanie: these days? 

[00:28:49] Ben: It’s smoke and mirrors- What is normal? … is it? So how, how many years in, how many years at, at that game, and what’s it like running the two side by side? And do you know- Um- Do you have any time off?

[00:28:59] Melanie: Sundays. We have, Sundays are sacred now. They are a weekend in their own right. 

[00:29:04] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:29:05] Melanie: Uh, the normal day-to-day job, we started in 2014. Um, I’ve always worked corporate, he’d always worked tech. Um, the two came together quite well. My background is marketing forever and ever, amen. But marketing in, in kind of the dotcom boom.

So, uh, FreeServe, AltaVista, Orange tech stuff. Um, so I, I kind of feel like I’ve been there, seen it, done it, got the T-shirt in a lot of ways. Um, the heady, heady days of the internet bubble. Um, 2014, uh, we started, uh, the agency, Thinking Fox. Um, we said we would never take on big clients. Um, we picked up a large publisher, Penguin, in our first year.

Um, walked out of a pitch, a competitive pitch, went, “Yay.” 

[00:30:00] Ben: Yeah. Oh, um, 

[00:30:02] Melanie: um, they’ve been a client ever since. They’re still a client. Nice. They’re a, um, an excellent client. We are very grateful to them. They’ve opened a lot of door- doors for us. Um, we don’t specialize in a, a specific vertical. Um, uh, but we kind of look after problem children, I suppose.

People that have got a crunchy problem in some form of marketing, usually got some digital manifestation to it. So predominantly websites is kind of where we started most things. Um, but yeah, it’s fun. It’s, it’s morphed an awful lot in recent years. Um, we grew an awful lot. We then shrank an awful lot in our first years together.

We then hit a happy medium of, of six of us that all work together, that know each other very well, that work very well together. Um, so yeah. 

[00:30:58] Ben: How does that fit along the other job, how well, 

[00:30:58] Melanie: okay- … a side hustle? 

[00:30:59] Ben: How does it fit with the side hustle, but also h- h- you know, it’s one thing to be in business with, uh, as, as you shall now be known on this podcast, the husband.

Mm-hmm. Uh, it’s another thing to run two businesses together… I would think. So, you know, how does that, that dynamic work, and how does the dynamic of running those two businesses work? 

[00:31:20] Melanie: I, I think it’s interesting. When I, when I first announced to my friends and, and colleagues that I was leaving where I, I was employed in 2014 and I was gonna go and start an agency, um, they all looked at me and went, “With who?”

And I told them, and they went, “You’re mad.” It was the same year we moved house and we got married, so you know, if it- That- If that didn’t break it- That always happens, doesn’t it? It was, it was, it was good, you know? Um, we both know what each other brings to the party. Um, I, I, um, look after what is, uh, affectionately referred to as, as words and fluffy pictures and, and pixels and bits and pieces. And, uh, that side of the business looks after the technology piece. Um, and it’s not narrow the two shall not meet, but we, we, we both know where we play really, really well and where we shouldn’t play really, really well.

[00:32:12] Ben: Don’t touch that. 

[00:32:13] Melanie: Yeah. Um, and I think it’s, we’ve carried that over into The Wine Place. 

[00:32:18] Ben: I was gonna say, is that how naturally… in the new, new business? 

[00:32:21] Melanie: Absolutely. Um, I suppose when you, when you work with somebody so closely, um, as, as kind of your, your w- w- I’d, I’d call him a backstop. We, we’re both in each other’s corners. If I’m dealing with a client that’s specifically about branding, I might need to tap out at a certain point and tap somebody else in to kind of manage conversations and push things forward and all the rest of it, and I think we, we’ve both kind of organically taken that through into The Wine Place as well.

Um, I’ve had laryngitis recently, so he’s had to do- He’s- … far more of a speaking role than me. 

[00:32:58] Ben: All the talking. 

[00:32:59] Melanie: But, but conversely, you know, we, we kind of work out actually how, how are we both doing? How are we both dealing with things? Actually, where, where do we wanna play today? There are days where I’m like, “No, I’m gonna be front of house,” and, and we’ve got, um, a couple of girls that work with us as well, and I’ll bring one of c- one of the girls out and he’ll run the back piece and, and, and it works really, really well like that.

We’re both very process-orientated, which I think is really helpful. Um- I think if we weren’t, it would’ve been absolute chaos from day one. Um, the one thing I would say, um, uh, again, I suppose kind of blowing a trumpet, I suppose a little bit, is that we started off and it was just the pair of us for the first three months.

Um, we do look back at it now and think, “I have no idea how we did that at all.” He ran the front of shop and I ran back. We serve small plates, cheese, charcuterie, uh, bits and pieces like that, so I would be dealing with, with all of that side of things, and he’s playing the g- the wine game with people. 

[00:34:05] Ben: Yeah.

Do you really have no idea how that is? Or is it, is it down to a, just a resilience or a, a, a knowing each other out? And also there’s, there’s kind of, there’s no other way, right? There w- It- it’s the only way this business- It, it, it- … is gonna get off the ground is if the two of us do it. 

[00:34:19] Melanie: Yeah, the only way is through at that point.

And I think there has to be a, a, a certain resilience, um, pig-headedness, bloody-mindedness, whatever you want to call it, that actually, um, whilst there are days where you’re slammed and you’re four deep at the bar, and you’re run off your feet, and you’re like, “And I’ve gotta remember an ice bucket for you, and I’ve gotta…”

La- la- la- la- la- la. Um, it’s really good fun. 

[00:34:45] Ben: And if you’re having fun, you get more done, right? 

[00:34:47] Melanie: Yeah. 

[00:34:48] Ben: Um- You do. On, uh, do, um, just, uh, uh, do you have a shorthand in the mar- y- you develop a shorthand language of wha- whatever it is or, or… a shortness… depending on the couple. Um, did you have that in the, do you have that in the marketing business where you can just, you know, I, I was gonna say like telepathy.

It’s not like tele- but do you know… And, and that kind of- Not a, 

[00:35:11] Melanie: not a telepathy per se, but I, I think we both recognize, recognize the signs in each other of there’s a certain stress level building. And, uh, usually at that point the other person will go, “Hey, go for a walk round the block for a second.” We have a phrase where it’s, “I’m just off to go and kick a cat.”

We literally do not kick a cat. It’s really not a thing. No cats were- No, no cats have been harmed … injured in the recording 

[00:35:37] Ben: of this 

[00:35:38] Melanie: podcast. 

[00:35:39] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:35:39] Melanie: Um, but it, but it’s just take a minute, take a beat. 

[00:35:42] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:35:42] Melanie: You know? It, it’s cool, it’s fine. I’ll just step into the fray. And, and that for me is the tap in, tap out thing with, with the day-to-day business, is knowing when kind of the pressure’s mounting.

It’s usually in the, the final yards of delivery of a project. And it’s usually a client saying, “Can you just…” And it’s like, “

[00:36:03] Ben: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

[00:36:04] Melanie: I can just.” “

[00:36:05] Ben: Yes, but you could’ve just mentioned that- Just mentioned that- … a little bit earlier” … a while ago. Or- Or in the brief. 

[00:36:11] Melanie: Yeah. 

[00:36:11] Ben: Mm. 

[00:36:12] Melanie: You know? But these things happen.

And I dunno, um, part of the reason for starting Thinking Fox in the first place was- M- my background is marketing. I’ve worked with an awful lot of marketing agencies, and I’ve worked with some amazing ones, and I’ve worked with some less amazing ones. And I, I’d looked at some and gone, “But you can deliver a bit more.”

Um- Sidestep for a second, I suppose, but, um, I, I was hanging out with some people on Sunday, having a relax, having my weekend- Having a day off … having a day off. And, uh, she mentioned a book called Unreasonable Hospitality and asked if I’ve read it. Yes, I’ve read it. Um, and I thoroughly believe in the ability to sprinkle a little bit of magic dust on something for somebody.

That takes you no effort, or minimal, minimal effort, but delights and surprises them. Um, my parents are very much that way. I think the husband’s parents are very much that way as well. Um- 

[00:37:21] Ben: It’s in the DNA. 

[00:37:22] Melanie: I, yeah, I think it’s in the DNA. It, some, some of these things, they, they cost nothing to do, you know?

[00:37:29] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:37:29] Melanie: And- 

[00:37:30] Ben: That is, by the way, uh, the, the, one of my favorite book recommendations. I’ve just read it again. Or listened to it again. I’m a listener rather than a reader. But Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara, I’m gonna say. 

[00:37:42] Melanie: Uh, 

[00:37:43] Ben: y- I’m gonna go with that …, something like that. Yeah, no, I’m sure it is. Um, yeah, it’s d- and it’s just about going that extra m- it’s, well, it, it’s like, it’s going the extra mile, but without going the extra mile. The extra mile It’s something, it’s the- 

[00:37:57] Melanie: Yeah … 

[00:37:57] Ben: it, it could be the most minimal of, of effort. And- 

[00:38:01] Melanie: And, and that costs nothing. And that to me is what hospitality is about.

That to me is what running an agency is about. That to me is the proof in the pudding of why we’ve kept, kept our clients for years. 

[00:38:17] Ben: And we joke about the, “Oh, you should have mentioned that earlier in the brief.” Mm. Or, “You should have…” But actually, me listening to that book again was, was the reminder of, no, I, I’m providing a service.

Yes. And the reason that people keep coming back is because we get done. Yes. But we do it in a way that- Yep … you know, surprises and delights. 

[00:38:38] Melanie: Yeah. Exactly. And, and that costs nothing for anybody. We’ve all been into somewhere, in a bar, a pub, or whatever, where you encounter somebody that doesn’t care, that doesn’t give a monkeys.

Does it make you wanna come back? Not really, no. Does it make you wanna spend time talking to them? Not really, no. And you don’t have to talk to me when you come in. I don’t mind if you don’t. You won’t be upset. I, I won’t take 

[00:39:03] Ben: it, I 

[00:39:04] Melanie: might take it personally. Maybe. No, I won’t, I won’t take it personally at all.

But I’m here if you wanna have a random conversation about something that, that is on a, a topic for conversation that day, or just shoot the breeze or, or whatever. No? 

[00:39:19] Ben: Just quickly, ’cause our time is nearly up. 

[00:39:21] Melanie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:21] Ben: Um, you mentioned earlier, team of six. At Thinking Fox. Yep. And how much you enjoy that, and everybody works together really well.

Yep. Are you now enjoying putting another team together? 

[00:39:33] Melanie: Loving it. It’s amazing. It, uh- So if I, if I were to have a word of advice for anybody, if you’re running your own business, start a side hustle. It makes you appreciate your day job an awful lot more. Um, ’cause I, I get to Thursday at 2:00, and I know I’m opening the shop in an hour or two.

Um, and I, I, I can stop doing what I’m doing, and I have to put my, “Hi, would you like some wine?” face on at that point. Um, I’m loving building a team in the shop. Um, they’re observant. They’re smart. They pick up on things. They spot nuances. They’ll come in and go, “Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Ah, okay, cool.

Leave that with me. Let me see what we can do about that. It’s, it’s all about working with people that, that you’re all of the same mind, and you don’t have to, oh, have you spotted? That one’s, that’s what’s going on. Oh, they finished that. Can you go and clear that? 

[00:40:28] Ben: It just happens. 

[00:40:29] Melanie: It just happens, and it does, and they’re amazing.

And I, I love my little team. Um, predominantly female, but, you know. 

[00:40:39] Ben: I don’t know what you’re trying to imply there, but… 

[00:40:40] Melanie: I, I have a, a group of ladies who live close by in a, a very nice enclave, as it were, who are of a slightly older nature, who said to me, “Thank God you’re here.” I said, “But why?” And they said, “Well, we either have to go to a cafe or a pub, and we don’t have to do that anymore.”

[00:40:57] Ben: They can come here ’cause it’s nice. 

[00:40:58] Melanie: They can come here ’cause 

[00:41:01] Ben: it’s- It feels like theirs … 

[00:41:02] Melanie: easy and relaxed, and they can order a bottle of wine and have a bottle of ch- um, have some cheese. A bottle of cheese? That would be weird. Have some cheese. Have some charcuterie. Put the world to rights but do it in a place that’s really relaxed, that’s not frenetic, that’s not chaotic, that is not a bar or a pub, or they don’t have to deal with that kind of vibe.

It’s a very, very different vibe. Um- And I have a team that understand that vibe, that treat it like that and hold that quite dear and quite sacred, and that- that’s important to me as well Well, 

[00:41:39] Ben: I would imagine that is testament to your leadership as well with the team. 

[00:41:43] Melanie: Yeah, I th- I think we’re, we’re, we’re not without our, our little challenges behind the scenes, and we try not to let those- Okay

leak out. They do every now and again, but you know, that, that’s part and parcel of- 

[00:41:54] Ben: That’s always fun about those kind of- Well- … establishments, isn’t it? 

[00:41:57] Melanie: It’s like- 

[00:41:57] Ben: You’ve got to go a bit Fawlty Towers every now and then. 

[00:42:00] Melanie: … it, it, it does go a bit Fawlty Towers every now and again, but that, that’s part and parcel of running a shop, and that’s part and parcel when you know us.

They, people come in and be like, “Hi. What’s happened this week?” It’s like, “Well- 

[00:42:12] Ben: Well … 

[00:42:13] Melanie: let me tell you. This is what happened” The war front … “This is what happened this week.” You know? I just, I don’t know. There’s so many stupid stories. We got the courtyard cleared. They took the ivy down. They took most of the fence down with it.

We got the tree pollarded. We have a beautiful willow tree that’s been there for years. My husband got shouted at because he’d g- had the tree pollarded. Interestingly, the lady that shouted at him came back and apologized recently and commented on how beautiful the willow tree now looks. I… It’s part of living in a community, but it’s part of people also paying attention to what’s going on, and also looking at it going, “You’re keeping it sacred.

You’re looking after it. You understand what you’re looking after. You prize what you’re looking after.” Yes, we absolutely do. 

[00:43:01] Ben: Well, keep keeping it sacred. Thank you. I will. And, uh, thank you for joining us on the podcast. Thank you. For those that want to join you for a, a wine education, uh, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, is that correct at the moment?

Thursday, Friday, Saturday, 3:00 till 

[00:43:12] Melanie: 11:00. We do monthly events. Sign up to the newsletter. 

[00:43:19] Ben: We shall put all the details in the show notes. Mel, thanks for coming. 

[00:43:23] Melanie: Thank you. Been a pleasure.