Shift from Reactive to Proactive HR with Peter McDonald

[00:00:00] Peter: Any organization, no matter what size they are, really needs to understand what does the business need. Therefore, what job do they need? Terms and conditions of employment, really important. Do you have a good contract, an up-to-date contract? That’s really important because that leaves an impression of the organization somebody’s doing.

So that whole selection process and moving it to the onboarding process is really important. Hence, have a nice induction. The induction needs to be phased because the person needs time to settle into the organization. It shouldn’t just be a quick one-day death by PowerPoint. 

[00:00:36] Ben: Before we dive into today’s episode, a quick word from our sponsors, and by sponsors I mean me, because Berko And Beyond is now proudly brought to you by Chuffed Productions, the video production specialists based right here in Berkhamsted.

I know, I’m sponsoring my own podcast. I should’ve thought of it before, right? So if you’ve got a challenge in your business that a video could help solve, we’d love to help. Head to our website, chuffed.video to get in touch. Now on with the show. Peter McDonald, welcome to Berko And Beyond. 

[00:01:06] Peter: Ben, thank you. Pleasure to be here. 

[00:01:08] Ben: Um, now we’re gonna talk about all things HR, so, uh, I’m not sure who should be a bit more scared, me or you or the listener. 

[00:01:18] Peter: Well, let’s fire away and see where we go. We’ll find out by the end of the episode. So 

[00:01:21] Ben: I, I, I joke ’cause HR is one of those things, depending on who you speak to, uh, it does put the fear of whatever into them, and for others it, it’s seen more as a, as a caring role.

So as an HR professional, um, how do you see it? 

[00:01:38] Peter: Ah, that’s a good question. I think y- you, you look at it in the, in the context of what the business requires. I think the reality is HR needs to sit in and fit in with the size of the organization, where the o- organization’s going. Um, I think it sits between caring, but at the same time, businesses are in place to either make money or to deliver returns.

So I think good HR really sits in the middle and is able to manage that sort of middle road. 

[00:02:07] Ben: So was HR something that you’ve always wanted to do, something that you’ve always done? G- give us a little bit about your background. 

[00:02:13] Peter: Yeah, background. Uh, South African born by accent, as you can imagine. Um, I think got into HR at early stage with some really nice blue-chip multinational companies, so really good training ground.

Been in it for plus 35 years. My HR career has taken me from South Africa, uh, to Dubai. Um, I’ve also been to Switzerland, and now in the UK, so good international exposure and opportunity to see a bit of the world. Uh, but I like it, and what I like is working with now small, medium-sized organizations that actually really want to be proactive in this arena.

Um, too many small, medium-sized enterprises tend to be reactive, um, and the reactivity or the, “Oh, HR’s just administration” is, is not where I sit. 

[00:03:02] Ben: So, um, you, you’ve set up your own shop. Uh, we’ll, we’ll talk about that in a bit more, more detail about running your own business. Um, but you talked about some of those big multinationals and stuff you work with, and I know ’cause w- we, we know each other.

There’s no surprise we know each other, uh, which is why you’re on the podcast. Um, but an interesting story about one of the big, those big companies that you work with, and actually the first thing you were asked to do was … 

[00:03:26] Peter: Unfortunately, close the head office and, and work with others to bring about the sort of downsizing after a merger.

Uh, the merger became more an acquisition, and as a consequence of that, got involved working with them to- Release myself and a number of my colleagues, uh, in Switzerland. So yes, a, a difficult process, uh, but done professionally and done well. And at the end of the day, a good lot of us, like myself, have moved on to greener pastures.

[00:03:55] Ben: So how was that? ‘Cause you, you’ve got … I, I mean, the, the fascinating thing for me is, uh, you, you, you were the last one to go, as, as it were, so you knew all the way along. 

[00:04:06] Peter: When you, when, when you work and, and manage that kind of project and the enormity, there’s always somebody who’s last to turn the lights off.

You know, again, to be fair, the CA turns the lights off, and, uh, we- when the lights are turned off, we’d completed our exercise. Obviously not everybody, as a result of the acquisition, lost their roles, so they were still around, but a good portion of the team that were in the head office moved on and, and found other roles.

[00:04:31] Ben: I guess that’s more like completing a, a freelancer’s, uh, contract or a free- freelancer’s role anyway, that kind of feel. 

[00:04:38] Peter: It feels like that, but it’s sad because at the end of the day, you’ve worked for that organization for a number of years. Uh, that’s the part of the HR process that you don’t really like to do because it’s really personal, uh, and people’s lives are being affected.

But again, if you do it in the right way and clear communication, you explain the why, um, things can move forward, and I think it’s just difficult. It’s that part that is difficult to do, but we have to do it. 

[00:05:06] Ben: And I guess when you talk about the, the sitting on the middle there, obviously there is the exiting, exiting side of things, but there’s a far, there’s a far brighter and, and caring s- side that’s involved that’s on, on the other side of the middle, isn’t there?

[00:05:19] Peter: Well, there is, because I think, you know, again, I would say the large organizations have money a- at their disposal, and one of the things you do is you basically secure what we call good outplacement support. You actually help those that are required to leave through no fault of their own and help them with outplacement, to get their CVs up, get them mentally prepared to take on their new roles and chapters.

So there’s a lot that helps on that social side. 

[00:05:44] Ben: So how did, uh, it come about, you, you going on your own and setting up your own business, and how did, how, how did that happen? 

[00:05:54] Peter: I suppose when you turn the lights off and you get on the last plane out of Switzerland during COVID to come back to the UK, to then set up your own consulting business, um, that’s what it was all about.

But at that time, COVID was in, so the networking, the getting out and seeing potential clients, engaging with them in person, was all put behind a screen. So that was tough. Um, and as a consequence of that, y- you just really had to work harder at getting your name out there and doing the networking. 

[00:06:23] Ben: So talk to me about the si- sort of size businesses that you, you work with now and the experience of working with those larger, larger firms, how, how that, how that contrasts or how that feeds into these smaller businesses that you work with.

[00:06:39] Peter: Well, I think, uh, uh, working with a large multinational, I mean, part of the, the multinational organization, y- y- you actually have a lot of the groundwork in terms of processes and procedures there for you. So it’s an incredibly powerful learning ground. It, it really is. It’s like being at a, a school and really learning what people skills are needed and what HR is about.

When you go out on your own and working with SMEs, I, I think it’s really more about Understanding the business. You know, I think where people think HR is just a universal skill, it’s not really. I think the processes and the policies are very much reasonably standard, but a good or HR professional gets to understand the business.

Now, when you understand the business, you can then guide senior management, management, and even employees in terms of getting things right first. 

[00:07:32] Ben: So can you give us an idea of a, a company that’s implementing good at HR or getting HR right, what sort of stuff are they doing, doing day to day and … 

[00:07:41] Peter: Well, I think we

That’s a very broad question. I probably could go on 

[00:07:44] Ben: for- Well, apo- apologies. Do you want me to narrow it down a bit or? 

[00:07:48] Peter: No. It, it, it’s a good question, but it’s broad. I- if we were to narrow it down, I think small organizations between two employees and let’s say 50 employees, senior management have to first really communicate why they are doing the things that they’re doing.

I think that’s really important, the why. Uh, in our changing world that we’ve got, we’ve got to adapt quickly. We’ve got to adjust. Things are changing, shifting globally, locally. And then besides the why, I also think my view is that here in the UK there’s too much of a tendency to throw money at a, a difficult situation, whereas what good line managers and good, uh, leaders should be doing is being prepared to have a difficult discussion.

So those two things, explain the why, but be prepared to have a difficult discussion. 

[00:08:33] Ben: So do you think there’s too much focus on, uh, documents over conversations on, on tho- those sort of scenarios? 

[00:08:40] Peter: Uh, they need to be balanced. You know, I think what you find now, particularly with AI stepping into the breach, and a lot of employees are now using AI to put their defenses together when they are potentially being put into an HR process.

Documentation from the employer side is equally as important as the discussion. But I think a lot of issues can be solved by having the discussion rather than waiting for the issue to surf, sort of grumble underneath and then suddenly explode. Um, I think one of the areas where small businesses reach out to me and say, “Can you help?”

is, “Oh, I’ve got this employee. I want to get rid of them.” Well, you can’t just get rid of them anymore. There’s protection and laws in place that do protect them. So have a good process, make sure your documentation is good, uh, but really have the, the, the credentials and the experience to have that conversation, which is difficult.

[00:09:35] Ben: Let me see if I can ask another daft question that you can critique. Uh, so e- those difficult conversations, why, why are they avoided, and why are they best not avoided? 

[00:09:45] Peter: They’re best not avoided because at the end of the day, if they are avoided, they end up causing you time, and eventually, if it really gets out of hand, can ca- cause you a lot of money.

So you can end up having an employee tribunal, con- a constructive dismissal case because those conversations weren’t in place. Having those conversations doesn’t mean you disciplining or, or trying to bring somebody into play, but you needing to engage with the team member or the individual that says, “We’ve got some expectations.

Let’s make sure those expectations are clear.” And I think that’s where a lot of small, medium-sized organizations don’t do well. They don’t manage the expectation. 

[00:10:27] Ben: So is that expectation set, set in the role, or is it in a job description, or is it, is it, is it one-to-ones? Is it day- day-to-day feedback? 

[00:10:36] Peter: It’s all those things.

I think the … You know, it’s a cocktail of things. I think the cocktail is the job description. This is what we require you to do in terms of the job. But again, that conversation around what are our expectations, timeliness, completion, quality of work, that’s not necessarily sitting in a job description.

That’s sitting in the line manager and the leader leading that person to develop and grow. So what you find is, a good example is probation periods Uh, often probation periods are done as a file 13 activity. And, and the beautiful case that I had recently is a client phoned up and said, “Oh, I’ve got this problem child.

I need to get rid of them.” And my first question is, “How long have you had them?” “Well, they’ve been here nine months.” “Oh, and how long was the probation period?” “Three months.” “And did they pass that probation per- ” “Oh, yes. No, they passed the probation.” “But why is it now a problem?” Um, and the reality is they actually did a file 13 probation, uh, process because the probation period allows both parties to determine if they’re comfortable.

[00:11:41] Ben: So just explain that file 13 for, for those that don’t … Like me, I’m going, “File 13 is what?” It’s- 

[00:11:47] Peter: Just a use- useless exercise. You pick it up, put it in the drawer, and you forget about it. Probation’s a really important period where both the new incoming staff member and just, and the business can actually see if you fit together, and that’s where you set the expectations.

That’s where you make sure the job description is clear. That’s where you set some deliverable that you follow up and monitor to make sure that that person is a good fit for your organization. 

[00:12:14] Ben: So the file 13 is doing all of that. That’s, that’s the, the, the name for it. 

[00:12:18] Peter: Well, no. The file 13 analogy is not doing any of that and just saying, “I’ve done a probation period, and by the way, Ben, you’ve passed your probation.

Thanks. Well done.” Uh, what a file 13 activity is not about is actually doing those things and actually saying, “Ben, you’ve set your objectives. We’ve discussed them. We’ve had regular meetings. Looks like you’re doing a great job. We like what you’re doing. Let’s move on, and we look forward to having you for the duration of your time with us.”

So probation is a good time for both parties just to really settle in and see if they like, A, joining the organization, and B, if the organization likes them. 

[00:12:58] Ben: I think as well that’s really important for small to medium businesses because of the size of the team as well. 

[00:13:07] Peter: I think it’s probably even more important.

Y- and again, like I said earlier, it all depends. When, when you get a good HR professional in, into your business, their first thing should be to understand your business. As soon as they understand the business, they can help solu- s- give you solutions that fit that business. Um, to just bring in a, a off-the-shelf product and, and, and a whole lot of policies and procedures is probably not a good service offering.

Because different organization of different sizes, they have more intimate team working. I think that becomes a really important piece. So have you, in your probation period, given the incoming or new team member an opportunity to really work with the others and for them to give input? So not necessarily a 360 d- degree feedback process, but just a really open, candid environment where that conversation takes place at an early stage.

[00:13:58] Ben: Would you say that this is the one mistake that businesses of all sizes make, is that probation period? ‘Cause I know you’re big, you’re … It’s a big thing for you as advice. 

[00:14:07] Peter: Yeah, I think, I, I think it varies. There are some fantastic small organizations that really do a great job, and when they do a great job, there’s really very little need for a good HR practitioner in there to support them because they, they work through that process.

They, they do it and they do more. Um, they integrate the person very quickly into their business, and that person sits down and, and starts to fly. Those are not where I’m worried about. What I’m more worried about is somebody comes in and says, “Okay, I’m starting with you. Have a good probation period.” And the line manager says, “No, don’t worry.

We don’t do that. It’s not important here. Just here’s, here’s your desk. Get on with it. And by the way, if you need any help, call and help.” That’s where it gets tricky, and, and I think 8 out of 10 times, that’s where it actually starts to cause a problem. And when the problem surfaces, then they’re not prepared for the difficult discussion.

And then when that happens, things get really out of hand, and then they call in the firefighter to put out the fire. So rather not have a fire in the first place, just put all the processes and, and the degree of documentation proactively in place. 

[00:15:15] Ben: So- Top down, let’s try and put s- put this kind of into a visual.

So if you’ve got someone new coming in- into your business, what- what’s kind of the, the ABC, the first few things that you should, should have in place, or, or even before they come into your business? 

[00:15:32] Peter: Well, I think, I think first of all is the job description. I think any organization, no matter what size, they really needs to understand what does the business need.

Therefore, what job do they need? So the job is about what the business needs to do, therefore have a job description. Within the discussion around your job description, you’d also then be talking what kind of person you’d be looking to bring in, which is linked to your culture. So do you understand what your culture is?

So job description is about the job, talk about what person you’re looking for. And then make sure that with the job description, obviously your selection process, uh, and hiring and appointing somebody is, is nicely done and professionally done. Uh, terms and conditions of employment, really important. Do you have a good contract, an up-to-date contract?

Um, that’s really important because that leaves an impression of the organization somebody’s doing. So that whole sort of selection process and moving it to the onboarding process is really important. Hence, have a nice induction. Um, the induction needs to be phased because the person needs time to settle into the organization.

It shouldn’t just be a quick one day, “Oh, by the way, here’s a PowerPoint,” and death by PowerPoint. Um, so job description, make sure your selection process is really good, have a really nice process that’s smooth, and then make sure your contract’s up to date and professionally presented, and then onboard the person in the best way possible.

[00:17:01] Ben: And so what … Going back to probation period, I- I’m guessing the answer to this would be depends on the business, but how long should, should that probation period be? 

[00:17:11] Peter: Well, I suppose it, it’s less about the business. It’s more about what level you’re bringing the individual into. Um, and again, that is really very much determined by the nature of the business and, and the organizational structure.

So you may well find senior managers and leadership team folks may well have six months, uh, notice periods. I think let’s just talk notice periods rather than probation. Okay. Notice periods at six months, but then lower down you might move to three months, and, and the general thing is a month’s notice tends to be quite common.

Um, on a probation process, depending on where you are, I, I wouldn’t necessarily see any, any probation period less than a month or longer than three months. If you can’t work out after three months that you’ve hired the right or wrong person, then there’s something else wrong within your business. So I wouldn’t see any- 

[00:18:03] Ben: Probably the person that’s doing the hiring, yeah.

[00:18:05] Peter: Yes. 

[00:18:05] Ben: It’s like, “Oh, let’s, let’s point it out.” 

[00:18:08] Peter: Yes. So, you know, don’t put in probation periods that span six months. It, it, it just doesn’t work. 

[00:18:16] Ben: So to that point, um, uh, wh- when should HR get involved in, in the actual hiring? As in would you have, uh, would you recommend to business owners, uh, or, or to business leaders that they have someone else from the HR department or someone like yourselves, fractional HR, in those interviews at any stage, or, or would you err against that?

[00:18:42] Peter: I think HR needs to be at the table at the right time. I think that’s, that’s the, the general answer for that. I think when you’re looking at a selection process, you always get a long list, and then you take down a, down to a short list, and then you start to bring people in for an interview. I, I really think panel interviews today are really important.

So bringing in and create a panel of two managers and an HR professional or somebody of that nature that can help them just objectively do a competency-based process that allows them to objectively defend, “Ah, we hired Ben for this reason and with all these answers answered.” I really don’t think going into a, a, a recruitment process and just hiring somebody on a one-to-one basis is the way to go.

Get somebody else within the business to come and be part of that panel with you, maybe from a different department, because that’s how you drive a team culture rather than siloed culture. So involve others in the process. But yes, ultimately- Don’t view HR as just that back office admin that then says, “Hi, we’re hiring Ben.

Can you produce a contract for him?” 

[00:19:51] Ben: I know, uh, of people who’ve … So smaller businesses who’ve got a business coach or a business mentor and had them in on the interview process because it’s a second pair of eyes that is, they might spot something, they’re like, “No, you’ve just got thrown your own bias in there,” and actually this person, they, you get on with them really well.

They might not be doing, be good for the job that you want them to do. 

[00:20:13] Peter: Yeah. I think, I, I think the element of unconscious bias is a real, a real issue, and that’s why I think a panel’s a nice way to go or to bring in your coach with you. Good HR professionals who’ve been around for a while and worked in different organizations, different sectors, they have the ability to also help the four-eye principle.

So again, they, if they are sit- seated with you in the business and they’re part of your business, they get to know your business, they get to know your culture, so they can contribute quite proactively and say, “Maybe not that person for these reasons because of how they answered this question and that question.”

So again, you’ve gotta move on, on the selection process, you’ve gotta move from being a subjective process to something that’s very objective, measured, and scored these days to make sure that you also take out any unconscious bias. You know, somebody might say a South African, we’re not gonna hire him because he’s a South African.

You can’t do that these days. So I just think it’s really important to make sure that there’s more than one person as part of that selection process, particularly when you’re working through the final stages of your shortlist. 

[00:21:23] Ben: So there’s, th- there is a, uh … There’s a thing here around hiring the right person and getting help, help there, but also, dare I mention it, there’s a legal side of things as well, right?

It’s a lot of what’s involved in that process. You, you wanna, you wanna make sure you’ve got it, like, your ducks in a row, as you say, in the right process in a row should anything happen. 

[00:21:44] Peter: Yeah. I, I, I think on the area of selection, it, it really does require you to have a robust process and a well-documented process.

You know, I think at the end of the day, you look at where we are economically, there’s a lot of unemployment, there are a lot of jobs going out. You’ve got to have a way of- Filtering and reviewing your CVs, it needs a human touch. Um, I don’t wanna start a debate around AI and what AI can and can’t do in, in terms of CV screening, but I would recommend that every application is seen by a human eye, maybe behind the scenes by an HR professional who can then make sure that there are clearly candidates who do not meet the job specification.

They are not shortlisted, they’re not even moved forward. But as you move down that line, I think the more you document, the more you involve others, and you have a very clear process that is objective and not sub- subjective on selection of the lead candidate, then I think you’re very fine. 

[00:22:43] Ben: Um, what, what’s your feeling on, I, I’ve, I’ve heard a couple of people who, who have put together as part of the process of the application, so there might be four or five things that they want someone to do on the application and include certain things, and then obviously if you don’t match any of those, that’s then straight, straight rooted out.

I know for example, one of them were in a video production company. It’s not something I’ve done, but part of the process is, you know, you fill in the form, you write one paragraph on a thing, you give an idea about something, and then you record a two-minute video. And then those that have haven’t recorded the video, have not been included in the process.

[00:23:22] Peter: I would ask has your advertisement or the way you’ve put out the, the job search to the market very specific and very clear about what you need to do in your application? I think if it’s very clear in your application that it is a requirement to submit a short video, by not submitting that requirement, I would argue that you’ve got grounds not to shortlist that person.

So what you can’t though do, is not make that criteria very clear and then behave like that, because then you’ve been quite subjective. But as soon as you’ve listed your criteria, you’ve required it’s explicit. And I think the other point that we have to take into account is that n- not everybody is the same, and we’re dealing with a lot of neurodiversity.

So again, look at your selection process that make sure you take into account some of those things. Some people may be put off by p- filling in an online form. Do you have another avenue that allows them to actually type it up and put it in the post and send it to you? So- The world of what I call selection, because you select the best person, is at the end of the day really tricky.

Um, and that’s why you have professionals out there. There are recruitment companies who work, and there are firms out there that specialize in this process. It’s just one of many other HR processes that HR professionals are generally very good at. 

[00:24:48] Ben: Hiring’s a pretty scary process, though, to some, to some small business owners.

[00:24:53] Peter: I, I, I think it is. I think part of that sort of scary or fear element around bringing people in is They’re not necessarily having the nec- the right support. Now, again, I’ve said, you know, there are hiring firms, there are re- recruitment specialists out there that can support, but a good HR professional can easily help those people overcome any concerns that they may have.

But it’s really s- in some instances back to basics. The job description. It doesn’t need to be a 10-page document, it just needs thought and planning to understand what the business needs. It then, what channel to market are we going? What are we gonna do? A lot of people are using LinkedIn, for example. And then it really is how does the person come on board and apply?

[00:25:38] Ben: So I guess part of the scariness for s- for, for those business owners is the legality of it all, ’cause, um … So it, it … And, and the fear of getting it wrong, and what are the, the legal repercussions. So what, what, what’s the bare minimum that you should be doing to cover yourselves for these things? But on the flip side, what’s the worst that can happen?

[00:25:57] Peter: Well, I suppose the worst th- that can happen is somebody can keep phoning you up and saying, “Can you prove to me why I wasn’t selected?” Okay? And then if you are unable to give them a clear answer, you might well find that there’s some form of discrimination that comes your way. Um, I think part of it is image control and brand control.

You don’t want somebody going into the press saying, “Well, I applied for a really senior position, but I actually found out that they didn’t take me because I was 58 years old and gray.” You know? That wouldn’t do your brand any good if it got into the press. So I just really would encourage those people who are hiring just to put some good basics in place.

And again, an almost similar thing, be open and honest as to what your, your process is. What are your standards? Make sure they are clear, and then engage with the right people to support that process. 

[00:26:51] Ben: I, I actually know someone this happened to, where they’d put, they’d, they’d, they’d put out the jobs, they’d gone through the fir- first round.

It wasn’t even first round of interviews, and it, and then the, the, this person hadn’t been considered. Uh, and they did ex- exactly what you’ve explained. They were they were calling saying, “Well, hang on. Why haven’t I had a meet?” And for them, they’d had gotten a good HR professional in, in place and were able to point to it, and it was shut down pretty quickly.

But for anyone that, that’s not kind of aware of that stuff, as we often say on this podcast, uh, a lot of us, you know, we’ve not trained to run a business. We’ve kind of made it up as we go along, and this is where I think it’s really valuable to get that kind of advice. 

[00:27:32] Peter: Now look, Ben, I think y- y- you can’t make HR up.

AI’s coming into the realm and, and, and facilitating and easing certain aspects, m- potentially the administrative side. But you’re dealing with people here, you’re dealing with your business, you’re dealing with wanting to grow your business, make it successful, have the right people in it, get the team to be aligned and coordinated on the mission and vision.

AI can’t help you do that. Um, and you know, I think the reality around the legality of all this legislation, particularly in the UK, is just having a major overhaul at the moment, and things are changing that legislation. If you don’t stay up to date, the reality is a lot of small business owners probably are not up to date because they’re focusing on their business.

So that’s where I get to be proactive, bring somebody in, like myself and others, who can actually help steer you and make sure your baseline and, and, and your foundation is solid. 

[00:28:29] Ben: So what is the one change that every business owner could make that’d help the most in the HR department? 

[00:28:35] Peter: I think it’s have that, have that hard discussion, have that constructive discussion early.

Um, people can change. If they are not doing what they should be doing, have the discussion and document it. You know, don’t leave the discussion undocumented. You know, a number of my clients, they will go and have a discussion, and they will walk out the door, and they’ll phone me up and say, “Well, I’ve had the discussion.”

And I’ll say, “Oh, that’s great. Did you by any chance just ping back an email as soon as you got back to your desk to say, ‘Dear Ben, thanks for the chat. Please be really clear this up and, and, you know, move forward. And, and by the way, we discussed this and we discussed that.'” Building that documentation is important.

But what’s more important is actually having that hard discussion if it’s needed to happen. “Hi, Peter, things are not working well here. You’re dropping behind. You’re not meeting deadlines. The quality of work’s not … What can we do to help?” Um, attend to those discussions is what I would say is probably number one.

That would ease, I think, a lot of the then reactive people problem situations you’ll find yourself in. 

[00:29:46] Ben: So I was gonna ask you, uh, what’s one of the, the biggest disasters, biggest HR disasters you’ve seen? But that’s n- that’s, that’s the negative, and, uh, w- I, I probably scared myself enough with HR today. Uh, so l- let’s flip it to the positive.

Um, what are some good actions that you’ve seen in HR that have, that have seen some really good positive results? So they may have started off, you know, looking like they’re r- not being able to rescue and … 

[00:30:12] Peter: Well, uh, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll go back in time. Uh, uh, it was back in the time when I was, um, the, the head of people within a fairly large organization back in South Africa.

Uh, organization wasn’t doing too well on turnover, staff morale was low. Um, but we went in and, and, uh, a- and we advocated to get employee engagement up and running. Um, long story short, uh, we pulled out, uh, pulled in an independent, uh, specialist in the area, ran employee engagement surveys. We, we actually listened to the team and, and found from the bottom up where the issues were.

We then created action plans and put it in place. And the beauty of that journey, and it, and it took, uh, uh, it didn’t, didn’t bring about instant success because something like that takes time to work its way through because you’ve got to show action, you’ve got to show commitment, and you’ve actually got to look at it and repeat it the following year and compare your results and show where you’re moving positively or negatively.

But at the end of the day, we ended up creating a corporate video, and we got in a, a, a production company much like yours, and we filmed a, a, a really powerful sort of cultural video which we then made available to all the team members, and that culminated in that business actually making a lot of money and, and turning around a fairly negative culture into a really well-oiled team.

But that required buy-in at the highest level, and I think that buy-in was not, oh, we the leaders will buy into this, but it was more the leaders saying, “Hold on a second. We really need to hear from our team members, from our staff, our employees,” and that engagement was a really positive one. 

[00:31:55] Ben: I think there’s some co- some, uh, companies, small and large, who are using video to their, their advantage for exactly, for attraction of, of new talent as well.

So that brand story video or that brand video that’s on your website isn’t just talking to your clients if you, particularly the, the s- the larger organization. It’s talking to your future talent, which are, are the future of the business, right? 

[00:32:17] Peter: Absolutely, and I think w- w- 35 years, you go back to when I started in HR and I now look at HR today, the, the ability for applications and platforms to be linked to your mobile phone.

You’ve got instant access to your records or, and information like that. Organizations are using it th- in their selection process to bring on gaming. Some of the big companies are now getting candidates to play a game to help work out whether they’re fit for the organization. So technology is advancing at such a rapid rate.

I, I, I really think it’s That is important, and we’ve got AI coming in now. AI is coming in and creeping in, but like I said earlier, AI cannot understand your business from a human perspective. It can understand your business from what I’d argue a very factual, analytical perspective, but getting into the culture and how you, who you hire and why you hire, uh, good luck for it if it can do that.

[00:33:14] Ben: So what’s the best piece of HR advice that you’ve ever been given? 

[00:33:18] Peter: Uh, that, that, that, that was probably, uh, one of my best CEOs I worked for. Um, we were having a discussion around policy, um, and he just said to me, “Policy’s really important, but let’s make it two parallel lines, not one single line.” And what he meant by that is if you’ve got two parallel lines, you can still move between the parallel lines to have some fl- flexibility.

Whereas if your policy is a solid line, you can’t break it, because if you cross over, you’re not on the line. So I think that I’ve taken that piece of advice all the way through, and that’s what makes a difference between what I’d say a pragmatic HR professional versus one who’s not pragmatic, is that you operate within some degree of ambiguity because you’re dealing with different situations and different scenarios almost on a daily basis, but you’re dealing with the humans.

It can’t be a solid line. You need those parallel lines so that you can have the difficult discussions. You have the comfort to make changes and adjustments when you need to, to suit where the business is going. I 

[00:34:29] Ben: like that. I think that’s … I think that can be used in all areas of business, not just in HR, the t- the parallel line theory.

[00:34:35] Peter: Yeah. Look, y- I, I’ve got a, a, a client who In my view, is relying too much on AI, and AI is producing what they perceive to be a, a black-and-white answer, and I don’t buy that. I think HR in itself cannot be black and white. Yes, there are clear cases of gross misconduct. Okay, this is gross misconduct. We must go down this process.

But I think good HR requires you to be really pragmatic and, and to really understand each case rather than just paint everything with the same brush. 

[00:35:09] Ben: Just to finish off, I wonder if there’s an HR myth that you might be able to bust for us. Is there one thing that, uh, that you hear a lot and you’re like, “No.

No, no, no”? 

[00:35:19] Peter: Ghostbusters. Um. A myth. I think, I, I, I think, I think one of the myths that I often hear, and I, and I do believe it’s a myth, is that people can’t change. I’m a firm believer if people can change. Um, sometimes that change requires intervention, it requires coaching. It might require a, a externally supported workshop.

Um, but funny enough, our theme seems to come back to where we started. They… It requires that difficult discussion. Um, I worked for a CEO who was just basically results driven and, quite frankly, couldn’t care about people in a way, whereby we, we, the leadership team and myself, brought about a change to say, “We’ve gotta focus on the results and the people.”

And that person got it, and as a result of that, made a very successful business. So the myth is people can’t change. Yes, they can change, but then you gotta work on that. Right interventions. Um, so that’s one myth. Oh, the other, the other myth is HR … The other myth is that you only need HR uh, to do the administration.

Um, that’s wrong. If, if, if, if HR are not sitting at your top table, um, I think then I’d be concerned. Uh, I work with clients who want an HR professional at their top table to give input, to give advice. So no, HR is not for administration. That game has long left the station. Um, they’re an integral part of driving your business forward, primarily on driving culture and, and getting that teamwork and that effectiveness out and running.

[00:37:04] Ben: Brilliant. Well, thanks for joining us at our table today. Um, if people wanna get in touch with you, where can they find you? 

[00:37:10] Peter: Uh, they can just drop me an email at peter.macdonald@selectedhr.co.uk. Um, Ben, as always, been a pleasure, and thanks for having me on board. 

[00:37:19] Ben: My absolute pleasure. Thanks for joining us.

[00:37:21] Peter: Thank you.