The Power Of A Peer Group With Gordon Hall

[00:00:00] Ben: What we don’t know, we don’t know, but someone else in the room might. 

[00:00:03] Gordon: It’s often described as holding a mirror up. I’ve been around leadership long enough for now. There’s the classic example where you’re pointing at somebody, it’s their issue. They’re doing that, and actually there are three fingers pointing back at you, actually what I need to do, right?

So if I do that, that will help you have that blind spot for some of the things that you perhaps don’t realize that you are doing. When you’ve got a people that who are unbiased and trying to help you, you’ll get that support and you’ll get that help. 

[00:00:29] Ben: Hello and welcome to this week’s episode of Berko and Beyond.

Today we’re talking to Gordon Hall about all things, peer groups, coaching and mastermind, and loads of other stuff too. Let’s dive in.

Gordon Hall, welcome to  

[00:00:48] Gordon: Good morning, 

[00:00:49] Ben: Berko and Beyond.  

[00:00:50] Gordon: Good morning. Glad to be here. 

[00:00:51] Ben: Um, I guess we should start, there’s gotta be some sort of gag in here about how two blokes from the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire end up on a Hertfordshire podcast. 

[00:00:59] Gordon: Oh wow. Well, we are both from South Yorkshire, Ben, but there’s a big difference.

You are actually from Sheffield. 

[00:01:05] Ben: Yes, 

[00:01:06] Gordon: and I’m from the wonderful town of Rotherham. I think growing up in Rotherham in the seventies and eighties is very different to growing up in Sheffield in the seventies and eighties. But we are both of the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire. 

[00:01:15] Ben: I, certainly very different from growing up in Berkhamsted, I would imagine. 

[00:01:19] Gordon: I would imagine so, yes. We could talk about that all morning. 

[00:01:22] Ben: We could, but that’s not what the podcast is about. Uh, the podcast is, as you know, for local businesses, both big and small. And you work with businesses local and beyond? Both big and small. Uh, as an executive coach, uh, and as a Vistage chair.

[00:01:36] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:01:36] Ben: Um, so you’re big into peer groups. Do you want to tell us a little bit about, about those two roles? 

[00:01:42] Gordon: Yeah. Well, look, I mean, I’ve had a big career in, in, when I, when I used to have a proper job, I used to work in retailing. I used to be a consultant in the world of negotiation. Um, but a few years ago, I just felt, I just really wanted to help people.

Um, I got to that stage of my career. I really wanted to help people. So a peer group is a, it’s a funny word, isn’t it? A peer group is actually where business leaders work with other business leaders. Um, and often you find as a consultant, people will listen to you, but probably won’t necessarily take the actions.

If somebody says to you as a business leader who is another business leader, and gives you thoughts, actually, I really respect that because there are other, they’re, they’re having the same issues I’m having. So when you get 12, 14, 16 peers in the room. They, the ideas flow. And so suddenly you’ve got all of those people around you that will challenge you, support you, and as a result, you, you make better decisions.

Um, so you grow your business ultimately and you grow yourself. And that’s really important for me. Um, this is not all about just helping people grow their businesses. They do. But it’s also about them just living a better life. So, so I just have, so I, I had so much fun with it, uh, and I see so many people have better lives as a result.

So yeah, I have a real passion for it. 

[00:02:57] Ben: So talk to us about where you, where you started in, in your, your business life in that retail. 

[00:03:02] Gordon: Gosh. Um, so I did a degree all those years ago, um, which was completely useless, but I got the University of Life experience. Um, I went into the paint industry. All those years ago, um, selling paint, um, back to redundant miners in South Yorkshire in 1981.

Um, so 1985 it was actually, 

[00:03:26] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:03:27] Gordon: And so, yeah, I got into the commercial world and that took me into the paint industry, the DIY industry, and I went into Wickes, so they went into Jewsons, um, and yeah, buying and selling DIY products. Um, which, which, yeah, got me a passion for doing houses up and yeah, moving on.

So, yeah, I forgot about that part of my life. But yeah. Thanks for reminding me. 

[00:03:52] Ben: Well, that’s all right. We, we, we talk about it. Uh, we, we’ve, you and I have talked about it before because we first met when you were in your, in your, it’s gonna sound weird this, but in your negotiation stage. 

[00:04:04] Gordon: Yes. 

[00:04:04] Ben: Um, so you, I guess that’s partly your connection here to Berkhamsted, isn’t it?

Is that you, you used to work for the GAP Partnership who were based in Berkhamsted.

[00:04:12] Gordon: . Yeah. Look, I mean, negotiation is a life skill. So is it my negotiation stage? I’ve always been in a negotiation stage. Um, I still am, you know, life, life is a negotiation. Um, so yeah, that was our, that was when we first met, um, probably 15, 20 years ago.

[00:04:29] Ben: Yeah. You were in front of one of my cameras. We were doing an interview of, uh, various bits and bobs, uh, and then we kept in contact ever since. Uh, and full disclosure, not that it needs disclosure, um, in your, your Vistage, uh, peer group, so I know firsthand from it. Um, for people out there who you’ve briefly touched on what a peer group is, um, why, why would you, you recommend a peer group to people? 

[00:04:59] Gordon: Well, I think it’s gonna be right for the right person, so I select the right people into a, into a peer group.

[00:05:04] Ben: Which I have to say, having been part of it, that is, that is a real skill. And that is, 

[00:05:09] Gordon: I, I often describe it as just pulling together a large dinner party and you, you’ve gotta have the right people in the room, not necessarily to agree with each other.

In fact, having different opinions is really powerful as a peer group. So they’re different businesses. They have different backgrounds. Um, the more diverse they can be, the better. So it’s really important and it’s a skill yes, to, to, to get the right people in the room. Um. But, so I’d only invite people in who are keen to learn.

That’s really important. People who, who, they look in the mirror as the leader of their business and think, actually maybe, maybe I’m the bottleneck. Maybe I’m the one who needs sort of, it’s very easy to blame others, blame circumstance. But actually the most important person in any organization is, is the leader.

So investing in the leader to be the best they can be, the most important thing. So someone who’s very keen to learn is the most important factor of, of, of selecting the right people into a peer group. Um, we also have external speakers coming in. So we get real great external insights in, into a subject matter, which matter in leadership.

It could be presentation skills, it could be sales and marketing, it could be financial challenges, it could be all sorts of different things come up. So we get those external insights. Um, and of course, as you know, between the meetings, I. I work with my members on a one-to-one as a, as a coach. Um, ultimately hold them to account on the things that they’ve said they’re gonna do.

Who else holds people to account as a leader? So that’s really important part of the mix and it works. It’s great. Actually, somebody said to me the other day, and I’ll just use this one ’cause it made, it made me I an interesting analogy ’cause obviously we have Artemis two recently. Going up to the moon.

[00:06:50] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:06:50] Gordon: And um, one of the guys at Artemis, we came back, he said that was amazing ’cause we’ve been to a place that no one’s been before and we’ve learned loads of things. I thought, oh, that sounds like a peer group. Uh, but we also got a different perspective on our business. On, on, on the Earth. 

[00:07:04] Ben: Yes. 

[00:07:05] Gordon: I thought, yeah, when you’re up on the moon, you’re looking down on the earth, you get a really different perspective.

So I thought that’s quite an interesting correlation with the peer group really. I thought that was quite fun. 

[00:07:17] Ben: I think, being part of a peer group myself, that is that one. And we often talk about it’s that one day of the month or one day of the quarter, whatever it is that you, you know, you are encouraged to and you definitely get the best out of if you turn phones off, I’m literally out the office. I’m not there. You are present. You are in the room. And you, you zoom out. Um, we, we’ve talked on this podcast before about, about thinking time. You should probably talk about peer time. Peer is a funny word, isn’t it?

[00:07:50] Gordon: Yeah, it’s a group. It’s a group. It’s a, it’s a, um, another word you might want to use could be mastermind group. 

[00:07:55] Ben: Yep. 

[00:07:56] Gordon: Um. Uh, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s a group of like-minded fellow business leaders. I mean. We’re all busy. You know, time is always our biggest challenge. I think that’s the biggest decision we make every day when we wake up, is what am I gonna do with my day to day?

That’s our, that’s our choice. Um, so when I’m talking to people, I haven’t got time for that. Well, actually, the reality is it’s an important thing to do, to have that reflection, to go away and have a look, and suddenly you get loads of new ideas, which you wouldn’t have done dealing with the day-to-day of your, of your business.

So everybody I’ve worked with over the last few years has always, I’m so glad I joined. That time away gives me such reflection, gives me such a different lens, a different angle that I wouldn’t have made the decisions that I make. I’m so glad I jumped into the pool. Um, and it’s often, it’s often the case that they, they hold back ’cause what happened at the time, biggest, biggest, um, reason people wouldn’t join a peer group. 

[00:08:51] Ben: I wonder if this, if we can give an example without, without breaking confidentiality. 

[00:08:56] Gordon: Confidentiality is a big part of this. ’cause obviously what we talk about, we talk about in the room. 

[00:09:00] Ben: Well, and that is, that is a really important thing to say, to say is, is having been and having, being, being and having been part of groups, masterminds, peer groups before, is that you have to give, you have to give yourself to the group. And you, you have 

[00:09:16] Gordon: Vulnerability is a big part of it. 

[00:09:18] Ben: That was exactly the word I was gonna use and, and being vulnerable. And I just think, uh, when we talk about peer groups and masterminds and this, that is a massive point of it. So, to, to give an example, I’m just thinking if we can use one of mine or someone that we can, that that’s not kind of known about, of this sort of, uh, this might make, this might put people off even more, the issues that are processed Gordon during those meetings.

But essentially issue processing is you come to a meeting. Everyone signs in at the beginning of the meeting and at the end of that sign in, there are clearly people on that board that have got something that they need help with right now. Sometimes it’s half the group. 

[00:10:04] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:10:04] Ben: Often they’re, they’re very similar.

Um, but just talk to us a little bit about that, the kind of things that are solved. 

[00:10:11] Gordon: There’s lots of issues. I mean, if we could really sort of hone them. Often people.

[00:10:17] Ben: Yes. 

[00:10:17] Gordon: People issues. Um, personal issues, um, commercial issues, sales and marketing issues, cashflow issues. They would probably be the big sort of four areas that we would talk about.

But I think one of the things that is very interesting in a peer group environment, and I and I, and as, as the chair, I, I work that through, um, somebody comes to us with an issue. It might be, for example, um, how do I get the best out of my marketing budget? And actually when we talk that through, that ends up not being the issue at all.

It might well be how do they develop their marketing manager to a different skillset? Um, or how do they put more time to their, or how do they change their marketing mix or something? It, it can change because they get the different insights. So I think one of the biggest things I find with talking about an issue, it might not necessarily be the issue that, that somebody thought they had. Um, and you get those different insights. That’s really helpful. 

[00:11:21] Ben: I, I think that was one of the first things that surprised me when I, when I joined your group. Was that uh, okay. What’s it, I’ve got this problem. Alright.

Okay, well let’s talk about it and, uh, well, can we just get to the problem? It’s like, well, no, can we just find out if that actually is the problem first? So the interesting point is always the interrogation, if you like, of uh, the, the whole group asking questions about that. And, and then you, you are then asked, well, do you wanna restate?

Is that really your issue? Do you want to, do you want to kind of re restate it? 

[00:11:55] Gordon: In essence, what we are doing is, or what I’m doing is, is training and helping leaders become great leaders and becoming a great coach. ’cause ultimately, the job of a leader is to get the best out of your team. Get the best out of your resources.

That’s what we do. That’s what a leader is. Um, and if you are coaching your, your team. Getting the best outta them. Well, your business is gonna grow. Um, so that’s kind of what we’re doing by processing any issues is, okay, what are the issues? Um, and as a coach. I, you know, I trained as a coach, but actually something that you learn in life is, is to ask people the right questions.

They know what the answers are. So a good coach is, is somebody who doesn’t give you advice. A good coach is somebody who will get you to come up with the answers and actually hold your account to the, to the, to the decisions that you’ve made. Um, and that’s kind of what we do in a group meeting. But again, if you’ve got all these people listening to you saying something, Ooh, I better make sure I do that because it’s, um, we, we’ve discussed it.

And Ben, you said, I’m gonna do X and the next time we meet, how are you getting on with X Ben? Yeah, I’ve not done that. That’s not gonna go down very well. So, so, you know, so we make sure you follow it through. 

[00:13:05] Ben: It doesn’t go down very well, but it very, very rarely happens with me. Right. Confidentiality Gordon?

Yes. Okay. Uh, yes. Confidentiality. Uh, the, the other thing with a peer group and with a coach for me is blind spots. 

[00:13:18] Gordon: Yes. 

[00:13:19] Ben: Uh, because, uh, as again, we’ve talked about on this podcast before, as business owners or leaders, we know what we know. 

[00:13:27] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:13:28] Ben: What We don’t know. Guess what? We don’t know. But someone else in the room might, or someone else in the room might have had experience before or someone else might just see something that is just, you’ve not quite got there yet.

[00:13:40] Gordon: Yeah. It’s often described as holding a mirror up because most of the issues, um, look, I’ve been around leadership long enough to know. There’s the classic example where you, you’re pointing at somebody. It’s their issue. They’re doing that, and actually they’re. There are three fingers pointing back at you.

‘Cause it’s your, you are actually what I need to do. Right? Okay. So if I do that, that will help. So that you have that blind spot for some of the things that you perhaps don’t realize that you are, you are doing. And boy oh boy, when you’ve got a people who are unbiased and trying to help you, you’ll get that support and you’ll get that help all done for the right reasons.

[00:14:18] Ben: But also shortcutting, I think is another thing because. You’ve got, you can, you can get to places quicker as a business owner if someone else in the room has already done it. Or as you, it’s kind of a, something I kind of, I learned very early on is, you know, never waste a good mess up. 

[00:14:36] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:14:36] Ben: Uh, that’s not usually how I phrase it.

[00:14:38] Gordon: No, I think you did it slightly differently, but yes, I get what you mean. 

[00:14:41] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, and which again comes back, actually goes back to when I was at drama school and when it was, you know, learn from your mistakes. 

[00:14:49] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:14:49] Ben: It’s just. Take that on board. It’s all, it’s all, but if you are in a peer group or if you’re in a mastermind, you’ve got, or you’re working with a coach, you’ve got a room full of mistakes to learn from.

Because someone’s gonna go, and like you said, to point to that vulnerability earlier on, someone will go, ha, yeah, I did that, I did that. That was me. Uh, and what I learned from it is X, Y, and Z. 

[00:15:13] Gordon: Yeah. Look, ultimately it’s your decision. It’s your business. You make the decision that you want. No one’s gonna tell you to do anything different.

You decide what’s, what’s the right, but you’ve actually, you’ve got a room full of knowledge. Um, yeah. 14, 16 people with all that knowledge, it’s, it’s, it’s incredible.   

[00:15:30] Gordon: All on your side. 

[00:15:32] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:15:33] Gordon: They’re all there to help you and invested in you.

[00:15:36] Ben: And I think fair to say, all with very similar, uh, challenges.

Issues, problems, however you wanna phrase it. It’s what, what often turns up in the room is, and it might be down to economics, it might be down to circumstances, it generally isn’t down to size of business. Obviously someone with a lot more staff is gonna have bigger HR problems, but someone with small, smaller staff still gonna, might have the same issue with a member of staff. 

[00:16:04] Gordon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s, I mean, if you’ve been there, but if we process an issue and what I find time, after time, after time, a member has a particular challenge and we help them with it and looking around the room, oh, actually I’ve got, yeah, that’s really helpful for me because I, I, I realize now, but I’ve got that issue as well.

Or I could finesse how I deal with that particular challenge or, or when I have it, which I do quite often, and now do something differently so members will get the benefit from the conversation that we’re having about Billy or Jane’s issue and, and, and off we go. Um, yeah, it’s fabulous. So I get very excited about it because it, it, it works and, and, uh, I’ve seen the changes that it, that it makes.

[00:16:47] Ben: So you say peer groups are for a certain, it’s a certain type of person, but one of the most important things is you’ve gotta be open to learning what other characters. I’m, I’m thinking if people had sat listening to this or watching this and thinking, oh, peer group, that sounds interesting. 

[00:17:04] Gordon: I think, I think for me, I’m always happy to have a conversation with people because it’s an, it’s an interesting concept if it’s not something you’ve experienced before and it might not be right for you.

Um, but as I said, it’s. It, it’s often being prepared to have a go at something. I, it’s a bit like going to the gym. ’cause you are going to do, I don’t, I don’t that, but actually, you know, it’s gonna do your good, you know, you’re gonna feel better, you know, you’re gonna, um, um, be developed. So what, why wouldn’t you at least put your toe in the water?

[00:17:35] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:17:36] Gordon: And have a go with something. It’s not like a life subscription. You know, you, you go in and you, you have a go. Um, but I would always meet people to see if, um, if they’re right. There are sorts of people who it’s not right for. Um, but that would come up in a conversation that I, that I, that I have with ’em.

I wouldn’t recruit somebody in if they’re not gonna add to the group.

[00:17:56] Ben: No. And often, um, it, like in many businesses, uh, based, a lot of it’s around referrals, isn’t it? So you’ll have people within your groups who are saying, well, do you know what, I’ve met someone that is so that you are, you’re kind of, 

[00:18:08] Gordon: Yeah.

[00:18:09] Ben: Halfway there. 

[00:18:10] Gordon: I, I think, I think there’s another factor here. And here we are on the Berko and Beyond community. It, it creates quite a community. 

[00:18:18] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:18:18] Gordon: Because you can get quite deep with your fellow, fellow members in a confidential environment, but of course we understand them and we understand maybe their business challenges.

And so suddenly you’ve got a network of people that can help you, not only personally, but also um, in business, uh, you know, the, the different businesses that we have will, will, will work with each other, which is, which is great, which is really what a local community is all about. And I love that. I love that when I come in and, and, and, and chat with one of my, my, my members and the, oh, I’ve been working with Ben, or I’ve been working with Emma, I’ve been working with John, or, oh, oh, great.

That’s for me, that’s fabulous. Um, but also we, you multiply the people that we know. By 16. 

[00:19:05] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:19:06] Gordon: We know lots of people who we know that are good and will refer them, and it so creates a lovely local community. So I get very excited about that as well. 

[00:19:14] Ben: Um, I think it’s really important to point out, um, that for, for me being part of those groups is that networking, it is, uh, is a, is a small piece of it, but it’s very different to anyone thinking, oh, it’s a network group.

[00:19:29] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:19:29] Ben: Because that, that’s not what it is at all. No, it’s not a, um, morning Breakfast Club where you would go and have to take, we, and it’s, it’s, it that’s almost secondary, isn’t it? That just, um, happens by osmosis. 

[00:19:45] Gordon: Yeah, no, it, it, it’s a mental workout. You know, I, we meet, um, my main group, we meet six times a year.

Um, those days we, we spend a whole day and it’s a tough day. It’s, it’s, 

[00:19:56] Ben: oh, I’m exhausted by the end of it. I’m exhausted.

[00:19:59] Gordon: Excellent! I love that! Because you are mentally exhausted and we’ve thought, wow, I didn’t realize, and you’ve had this, you know, you’ve had a world class speaker in, you’ve had some great insights.

You’ve had, you’ve had a mental workout. So, yeah. No, and, and it, it, it works. 

[00:20:13] Ben: Do. And the other thing I would say, if you are asking members of peer groups what, why, why they would join them or, or thinking about it is try before you buy, is go, go along to, to one of these groups whether you are, you know, there are several Vistage chairs, obviously there’s one sat here right in front of us who you can talk to and, uh, and get invited along and go and try it out. 

[00:20:35] Gordon: Yeah, there’s lots of different options. I mean, I would, I would cover that and discuss that with, with, with a, with, with a potential member. And we sit down and have a coffee or whatever beforehand. So, um, look, it, it’s for the right person, I’m gonna go as far as to say it could be life changing.

So why wouldn’t you at least investigate it? 

[00:20:54] Ben: Yeah, I, I totally agree. It’s altered its course, for sure. 

[00:20:58] Gordon: Well, there you go. It’s, we’re in a boat, aren’t we? And you know, the old adage of a journey of life, you know, it’s, there are certain points when different winds come from different directions, and you’ve gotta be prepared for those.

[00:21:08] Ben: And just on the, um, on the accountability, uh, I think that’s a, a big piece that quite a lot of business owners or leaders do miss, is that, you know, there might be someone in the business that’s holding them to account. Having someone outside of the business is, is very different. Right? 

[00:21:27] Gordon: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it’s, and I used the word unbiased earlier on, um, some of the, some of the folks watching this or listen to this will maybe have some people around them who do advise them and help them, just wonder where their bias might be.

Yeah. Particularly family members, uh, fellow, fellow directors, fellow colleagues, um, even non-exec directors that they, they, they will have a bias. And when you’ve got a group of people of who have no bias, they’re just trying to help you, it’s a different type of, um, different type of conversation. Um, yeah, so it works.

[00:22:02] Ben: Can we talk, touch a little bit, uh, uh, on your, your credentials as a coach? Obviously you’ve got, 

[00:22:08] Gordon: But, the most important, Ben, is that we have fun. 

[00:22:10] Ben: Yes, exactly. We have, we, we do. And that should be pointed out. We have lot, lots of fun, which you’ve got to have the light and the dark in, in, in there. 

[00:22:18] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:22:18] Ben: Um, and, um, 

[00:22:20] Gordon: Yeah, what’s the line you and I often use?

[00:22:22] Ben: Yeah. It if you, if you, when you’re having fun, you get more done. 

[00:22:27] Gordon: Fabulous. 

[00:22:27] Ben: Which I believe is an award I’ve won in the group for, it’s three or four years on. 

[00:22:31] Gordon: I mean, we do, I think it’s really important not only in a, in a learning environment, but also in in work. You know, if folks wanna come in, they’re having fun, they’ve got friends at work, all that sort of stuff makes people much more engaged in, in, in an environment.

And there are so many stats on that. You’ve gotta make it an engaging and fun place to be. And, uh, so I try and do that within the peer group. Sorry, I interrupted you. 

[00:22:51] Ben: No, no, that’s all right. You avoided the question of your, your credentials as a coach, but it was more the kind of, how’d you get, how did you get into being a coach?

You know, you, you took talks at the start of I’ve gone through several bits of business. And you, and I know part of it for you is wanting to give back. 

[00:23:07] Gordon: I think there’s part of, it’s wanting to give, but the other, I, I just have a, I’ve learned through my leadership career that if you get the best out of those around you, A, you can do less and focus on the things that are really important as a leader, you should only be doing the stuff that nobody else can do, that you don’t get involved in the, you should only be doing the stuff that nobody else can do. So the more you can delegate, the better you can do. And of course, as a coach, I just find that fascinating actually. Helping others be the best that they can be.

And I just, I’ve always thought as a leader and I had a team, uh, and the folks around me, I wanted to just help them. And actually I came across this, the concept of executive coaching. I used to do a lot of sport and there was lots of coaches around in the sporting world, but business coaching and personal coaching has become much more prevalent in recent times. 

I’ll tell you a story. I dunno where this is gonna go, but, um, 

[00:24:10] Ben: Good. That’s how we like it. 

[00:24:11] Gordon: Uh, I, the, I was talking to a, a leader and I, I was told this story and he, he asked me the question, Really what is coaching? I said, well, effectively, I ask you the questions and you unlock, you, you be the best that you can be. Most leaders in the world have coaches these days. But there is one leader that you’ve probably heard of that’s never had a coach and talks about the fact that he’s never had a coach. Who do you think that might be? And he smiled and says, not a, not an American president by any chance, is it?

Okay. I said, okay, I’m in. I might get shot for that. I don’t know, but, but, 

[00:24:47] Ben: I doubt it. 

[00:24:48] Gordon: Okay. Okay. It’s, it’s being open-minded to people holding a mirror up to you. 

[00:24:53] Ben: Yes. 

[00:24:53] Gordon: Um, and realizing that, yeah, I can benefit also, just I think a sounding board. Having someone to, to be, to be with you. 

[00:25:02] Ben: So how is it going back to school, as it were, for you to go and go through?

So you’ve got, you’ve got the leadership, you’ve been coaching people throughout your career, I guess, it’s just a box ticked, is it to go and do, or is it something you really enjoyed going? 

[00:25:16] Gordon: Well, look, I, I’m at the point of life where I don’t, I’m, I’m getting to the point of an autumn in my life where a lot of my friends go, What are you still working for Gordon? 

‘Cause I love it. If I see somebody light up and, and, and take them to a different place, why wouldn’t I carry on doing that? So I’m not working full time now. But, it’s just fabulous to help people develop and, and I feel that’s what a, a coach does. Um, whether I call it a coach, just somebody who’s helping.

And there’s a difference between a coach and a mentor for me. A mentor is somebody who’s much more telling. 

[00:25:51] Ben: Okay. 

[00:25:52] Gordon: Um. I’ve been there. This is what I did. That’s whereas a coach is, is just ask the questions. The consultant is even further away where the consultant, well, this is what you need to do.

[00:26:04] Ben: You swap hats for that during conversations. 

[00:26:06] Gordon: Yeah, which is, yeah. I was a consultant for many years and told people what to do, um, as a, and that’s when I first became a, a coach, much more full time. That was quite challenging because I, I, I, well, I could say, I know what the issue is here. That’s what you need to do.

[00:26:20] Ben: But that for me is 

[00:26:21] Gordon: occasionally, you’re right, I do put the hat on. Occasionally. I might just say, Ben. You know what, you just need to do that. 

[00:26:28] Ben: That is of a massive benefit to me, because sometimes you can ask all the questions, you can, you know, pull on the strings, you can follow a different path.

You can, uh, you, you coax a, you know, coax an answer out. So it’s, it’s like this, it’s like an, an interview. You can coax an answer, answer out of it, but then you’re like, is that really the answer? Or it’s like. Now, hang on. He’s still not seeing this. 

[00:26:51] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:26:52] Ben: And we, we’ve had conversations and I massively appreciate the fact that you go, okay, I’m just gonna take my coach’s hat off now I’m gonna put my consultant’s hat on and, and then I go, oh, okay. I get it. 

[00:27:06] Gordon: Yeah. Hey, I mean, sometimes yeah, you, you do that as a, as a, as a, as a coach. Um, but that’s, that’s un understanding the situation to know when to, but what I wouldn’t do is go right, you need to do that, you need to do that. Um. Because it’s, you’re less likely to do it rather than if you actually come up with the answer yourself.

[00:27:23] Ben: Moving slightly away from coaching for a minute. ’cause you have got your finger on the pulse, I think because of these peer groups. Of a, a business landscape at the moment. And, uh, what would you say are, are the biggest challenges for businesses at the minute?

[00:27:40] Gordon: Well, I’ve been around long enough to know that it’s, it’s always challenging.

It’s always been, it’s always been difficult times. I don’t think I can remember a time when anybody’s not said it’s difficult times at the moment. So yeah, it’s, it is a rollercoaster of macro economic stuff. Um, that said, there’s a sluggishness, and here we are, April, 2026. Uh, there’s a sluggishness of people making decisions.

They are making decisions, they are moving their businesses forward. Um, but not quite as vibrantly and quickly as perhaps they did a few years ago. Uh, certainly during COVID when things were changing 

[00:28:21] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:28:21] Gordon: Hourly. Um, so I think that’s the, the main thing. But my, my, my thoughts are, persevere. You know, it’s, it business is going on, it’s there, there’s, there’s money.

There’s still, you know, the financial guys who come and talk to, to, to my peer groups talk. There’s money in the economy to, for people to spend. They’re just being a little bit more cautious than perhaps they normally are. So. Um, if you are in, in, out there, in the, in the service, just, just keep putting bread in the water.

It’s, it’s business is there. It’s just, it’s harder to, to to get people over the line. ’cause they’re, they’re taking a bit more time. But keep going, keep going. 

[00:29:02] Ben: Interesting you say taking more time. I, I, I get the feeling that minute there’s this, a stalling of decision making. It’s, uh, oh, I can, and they could, they could say yes, but they’re like, oh, just say maybe for now.

[00:29:15] Gordon: Yeah. Look, I mean, in commercial sales negotiation, which is very much where my, my, my world was for many years. Keep asking questions, ask questions as a coach would. So rather than, you know, say, what’s holding you back? What do I need to do differently? Um, great questions when you’re trying to close, close some work.

Um, and when people do say, I’m gonna work with you, ask them the question why. That’s the best bit of research you’ll ever get? Um, because the point when you talked about referrals earlier on. And I think it’s quite an interesting area. Um, if you think about anybody you are working with, what’s the point of time when you’re most impressed with them?

It, it’s usually quite early. So if you’ve got a, you are working with a new supplier, I, you’re working with a new, a new builder or somebody, it doesn’t really matter. Anybody that you’re working with, you’d probably be most impressed right at the beginning of the relationship and that’s the point when, when they should be asking you, can you recommend me to others?

People often don’t like to give referrals or, but you asked to be given referrals until I’ve been working with somebody for five years. Ask at the point of maximum wow. 

[00:30:32] Ben: Mm. 

[00:30:33] Gordon: Um, and I think it’s, we very commonly don’t do that ’cause we are a bit nervous to, um, so I’m not sure that answers your question then. I’ve gone on a bit of a tangent there, but it’s 

[00:30:43] Ben: No, no, but it, 

[00:30:43] Gordon: it, well that’s, it’s, it’s really powerful to, to, when times are hard, you, you, you just have to work harder. You push harder. It’s outside your comfort zone, but that’s where great things happen, as I always say. 

[00:30:54] Ben: I think that’s the other thing of having a, having a coach or having a a peer group as well, is that you, you keep, you are constantly reminded of those things because they’re the things that are easy to forget.

Particularly that thing of, that’s just reminded me again of we’ve just delivered a, we’ve just delivered a job. I’ve, I haven’t asked for the referral. 

[00:31:14] Gordon: Why did you work with this? What did you like about the piece of work? Well, this, you did that great, Ben, which you always do, but you did that great.

You did that. Okay. Well look, we’re a a small growing business. You want more work? Um, and tell people we’ve got space and often we don’t do that. 

[00:31:31] Ben: No, we don’t. 

[00:31:32] Gordon: Um, you know, we, I I won’t mention names ’cause you and I were talking about it the other day. There’s a, a local business who, who, who I work with. And he just told his clients that he’s got a bit more space and said, have you, gosh, you’re so good, I, I would imagine you are so full. And he told, and the next time I met him, he said, yeah, we’ve got a full order book now. 

[00:31:51] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:31:51] Gordon: Just, just because he told people that he wanted work and. And it’s so obvious that we don’t do it. And particularly when you’re just doing a first piece of work, that’s when people are most usually most impressed.

[00:32:05] Ben: I, I guess part of that as well is being, it could come down to systems and processes, it could come down to focus. It could come down to just, 

[00:32:16] Gordon: and you know what, one of my thoughts on that, but I think it can be systems and processes, it can be focus. But you know, one of the most important things, and I think one of the reasons why, this is going a bit of a tangent, but I think one of the, one of the reasons why Brits are a little bit poor on this scaling up of small businesses ’cause we’re uncomfortable. 

[00:32:33] Ben: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:33] Gordon: We don’t ask, Vistage is an American organization, so I spent quite a lot of time talking with my, uh, colleagues over there and some of that, and, and, and small businesses just grow.

Apparently in the UK we, we start more businesses than anywhere else in the world, but we are not brilliant at scaling them up. I fundamentally, because we’re just uncomfortable with some of those really important questions about why are you working with me? Who else do you know that I can work with? And, it just, so, but we just, we don’t do it because we’re a little bit outside our comfort zone. We don’t, we don’t do it, just do it.  

[00:33:09] Ben: This has just reminded me of the first time we, we, which we mentioned the top, top of the show, you sat down doing, uh, a little video with me in, in front of the camera, which were the GAP Partnership, and it was negotiation tips, but this is the same thing.

That your negotiation tip in that video would be the same here, which is get comfortable, being uncomfortable. 

[00:33:32] Gordon: Well, it’s a line I’ve used many, many, many times and in many, many contexts. Um, I I mentioned a couple of moments ago about getting outside of your comfort zone. 

[00:33:40] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:33:41] Gordon: And, and I think we are more comfortable in our comfort zone.

Um, and I, I believe that many businesses are held back by those, those little things that we should push that are just that little, not be ridiculous. ’cause you know, the comfort zone analogy is just a little bit outside. Going to the gym again, you push yourself just a little bit further, little bit further, a little bit further.

If you go in there and just go, whoa, then you, you’ll injure yourself and you and you and you can’t cope. So be constantly just going a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And I think if you get into a habit of doing that, you will grow both in, in, in business and in life. Um, so I’m very passionate about that.

And as, as a coach, guess what, like a sports coach, they would always just push you a little bit more. It’s very easy to stay in that comfort zone. 

[00:34:27] Ben: So I’m wondering if that should actually be part of a business owner or business leader’s job description, being outside, you know, a certain percentage of your time being outside your comfort zone.

Get comfortable being comfortable. 

[00:34:38] Gordon: What’s gonna happen if you don’t? 

[00:34:42] Ben: Probably what you were describing has happened to those businesses that do that, rather than do that. 

[00:34:49] Gordon: Yeah.

[00:34:49] Ben: Yeah.

[00:34:50] Gordon: Yeah. What’s gonna happen if you don’t go down the gym? Metaphorically? Yes. What’s gonna happen if you don’t try something different?

What’s gonna happen? Look, innovation is everywhere, um, at the moment, and it’s always been there. But more small, medium sized businesses are now getting CIOs on their, on their C-suite, the Chief Innovation Officer, you know, to, to, ’cause it’s so important. Um, that it, it businesses are changing quickly and that, but that, again, that’s uncomfortable for people, but try these things.

You have to have to move out there. So whatever discomfort is for you rather than, that’s uncomfortable. Okay. And that’s why that line get comfortable, being uncomfortable is an important line. It’s just, it’s a line. But actually it’s very, there’s a lot in it. Get comfortable being, because if you’re not.

You’re gonna stagnate, you’re not gonna push yourself, and it’s really important. So, it’s not gonna go away, the discomfort isn’t gonna go away. You just have to get comfortable with it. You know that when I go to the gym, well that’s gonna hurt. But actually I feel good about that, when I know when I come to a peer group meeting that’s gonna push me. Great. I feel better. I’ve grown as a result to all that. There’s a lot in that, in that statement. 

[00:36:07] Ben: Um, it would be remiss of me not to, uh, dive into the negotiation a little bit, having a negotiation expert in front of me. Um. So just to round us off on this podcast, delve a little bit into that, that life for me and you, uh, you were a negotiation consultant, but what are the kind of the mistakes you see happening the most often in negotiation?

[00:36:28] Gordon: I think, I mean, I could talk for probably 10 hours without, without taking, taking,  

[00:36:32] Ben: I think we may well do a podcast with you on that one.

[00:36:33] Gordon: taking breath on, on, on that one. Um, but it, it kind of comes from what we’ve just been talking about and often if I was talking to somebody about the subject of negotiation.

Some people go, Hmm, tell me more. Some people will go, I don’t like negotiation. So there’s something about the, the word if you just said to, I mean, let, let’s put the question out there to those listening. What do you feel when you, when somebody says negotiation to you, what words come into your head and, and for, for many it can be, it’s not something, Oh, great! I get to go and negotiate with my number one customer today to put through a 10% price increase. But people don’t generally jump out of bed and go and do it. Um, or likewise, I get to go and negotiate with my, with my family about, about Christmas and the fact that they can’t come, or course I, I have to make that up.

It it, it’s uncomfortable and so people will, will shy away from it. Um, so I see that more and more that people will shy away from stuff and it’s a build from what we were just talking about, that in essence, if we can, if we can decide what we can do. And then, a bit like doing a podcast, a bit like being on stage.

Once you’ve decided what you’re gonna do, you’re just gotta go on stage and do it because you make proposals as a negotiator, you make things happen. Um, so they would be kind of top, top thoughts. Um, comes back to that line again. Get comfortable. Being uncomfortable. Ain’t gonna go away. 

[00:38:02] Ben: I’m just reminded of the, uh, Nigel, who we had as a speaker at, uh, Nigel Taberner. 

[00:38:10] Gordon: Yes. The hostage negotiator. 

[00:38:12] Ben: Hostage negotiator. And that was one of the most fascinating mornings I had, was you as kind of the commercial negotiator and him as the, essentially Nigel talks about negotiating from, from nothing. In fact, actually I’d love to get him on this podcast.

Um, and just that the difference in the two and the very different ways that there are to negotiate. 

[00:38:37] Gordon: Yeah, yeah. And, and the overlapping similarities. I mean, it’s a very interesting chat. This is not a, he’s a ex-police hostage negotiator and he talked about the importance of engagement and asking lots of questions and asking more questions.

And actually when you’re done asking questions, ask a few more. ’cause you just get so much information from the other party. And, um, yeah, questions are, are, are, are rich in giving you, giving information. So he’s negotiating with a, a hostage or, or, or a bank robber or somebody who’s about to jump off a bridge.

Just, just asking. So, so what’s brought us to this place? And people don’t get asked those questions, so yeah, you get so much information from asking questions. Um, yeah, fascinating chap. Really interesting. I’ve had some great speakers along over the, over the years and for me, I guess to kind of, um, ’cause I, I, I get such a joy from the speakers as well, because I guess, um, yeah, you never stop learning, you know?

[00:39:36] Ben: Yeah. Again, it’s, it’s like the different people in the group and the speakers in the group, all just a different perspective, a different way of, of looking at business, but also different way of looking at life as well. I think the, the, probably the, the, the small piece we haven’t touched on a peer group is.

Personal growth as well. 

[00:39:52] Gordon: Yeah. Well, yours, 

[00:39:54] Ben: Well, mine and everyone else’s in the group. Yeah. I, I’ve definitely grown as a person I was watching. Um, uh. The, uh, the, uh, Bob Mortimer and Paul Whitehouse Gone Fishing. There was, it was an older episode that was on, and there’s a brilliant little piece where they just, um, they just sat obviously as they do by the fishing bank.

And, uh, it, this is paraphrasing. It was basically like Bob just said, Paul, do you ever, do you ever think you’ll, you know, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll grow up or you’ll feel grown up. And, um, uh, uh, for me, that, that, that just summed the whole thing up for me. It’s like, oh yeah, I’m in. I, I get on in life and being a parent and whatnot and going, oh, you, I’ve come quite a long way.

[00:40:38] Gordon: Yeah. 

[00:40:38] Ben: I still don’t think I’ve grown up. 

[00:40:40] Gordon: I, I’ll just tell you a story of one of my, uh, members, um, I won’t mention his name for confidentiality reasons, but we were walking around Chorley Wood Common one afternoon. I said, I one, one to one. I like, quite like my, my, my one-to-ones walking and he said, Gordon, since I’ve been working with in the peer group, the business hasn’t grown a bit.

I was thinking, oh dear, oh, oh, that’s  – okay. He’s gonna, um, he’s gonna be quite grumpy about that and we’ll have to talk about that.  But I have. I’m now playing golf again, which I haven’t played for years. I’m much healthier. My children and me are of a much better relationship. And you know what?

I think you’ve saved my marriage. And I was welling up. And he said Thank you. Wow. Because. He, he, it wasn’t, it was just so important. Um, he was, his, his life was not brilliant when, uh, when, when we first met and he, and he took the plunge to come and join and work with us. So, yeah, you’re right. Personal growth is, is huge.

And for me, more important. 

[00:41:41] Ben: And for that person. I think as you, we talk about life balance, but you always phrase it as life blend. 

[00:41:50] Gordon: Yes, I do. Yeah. Uh, look, you very kindly made me a nice cup of coffee this morning. How do you like your coffee? We all take our coffee. We all take our life differently. And I think work life balance always talks about that you kind of got this 50 50 thing.

Um, but actually some people really like work. Really, it’s their passion. And particularly if you’re a small business leader, it, it becomes part of you. Um, so you might have a really rich mix of work and other things. Um, well, there’s, well, the other way, and that’s, that’s your choice. There’s no, you know, magic way, I mean, I, I found my, my work has become very much, as I said earlier on, I love what I do.

Um, I could spend more time on the golf course. I don’t want to. Um, so yeah, it’s a blend and rather than a balance, I think we get that, that’s important. I get that mix right. 

[00:42:37] Ben: And I think that’s the perfect place to leave today’s conversation, which I hope to pick up, uh, again on a future episode. 

[00:42:43] Gordon: Alright, that’d be lovely. Yeah, I’ve enjoyed chatting. I, I forgot we were actually on a podcast. 

[00:42:46] Ben: Thanks. Well, yeah, exactly. Uh, Gordon, thanks for joining us and uh, it will bemis me not to say thank you for all the support you’ve given me over the years as well.

[00:42:52] Gordon:  Absolute pleasure. Yeah, Ben and I have enjoyed working with you enormously.

[00:42:56] Ben: Thanks for joining us.

[00:42:56] Gordon:  And, um, uh, yeah, I, I enjoy working with Ben and as we always say, we have fun and we get more done. So those of you working with Ben, you know that he’s a great guy. 

[00:43:05] Ben: Thanks, Gordon. 

[00:43:07] Gordon: Cheers. 

[00:43:07] Ben: Thanks for watching this episode of Berko and Beyond. We’ll be back next Wednesday with a brand new episode.

As always, if you’d like to be on the show, send us an email podcast@berkoandbeyond.com and please like and share this podcast wherever you get your podcasts.