The Power of Saying No with Holly Giddings

[00:00:00] Holly: A client said to me once, “Can you reduce your fees?” And I said, “No.” And there was probably about 40 seconds of silence, and then he said, “It was worth the ask, wasn’t it?” And that is far more powerful than saying, “No, because da, da, da, da.” No is a full sentence, and learning that has blown my head. And now if people say, “Oh, do you want to go?”

“No, thank you.” “Why not?” “Because I don’t want to.” How they respond to that is none of your business. That’s on them.

[00:00:32] Ben: Holly Giddings, welcome to Berko & Beyond. It’s great to have you here, and, uh, I say that because we’ve started a chat outside and immediately, as often happens with these podcasts is, “Nope, stop talking. Let’s get inside. Let’s get all the good stuff on camera.” Uh, so where do we start?

You are a business owner. You’ve got a couple of businesses, actually. Uh, you’re based in St. Albans. Tell us about… Well done. Tick, tick, tick. Tell us about business number one and how that happened. 

[00:01:00] Holly: So, um, uh, I was working… I’ve been in recruitment for a long time, and I was working for a large restaurant group in London as their head of recruitment and, um, a little thing called COVID hit.

And I was made redundant. I’m devastated ’cause I loved that job, and a friend said, “Why don’t you start your own agency?” And I said, “Absolutely not, nope.” Um, because it’s hard, and because I didn’t… I think most people don’t like recruitment agencies. 

[00:01:28] Ben: Th- there’s a couple of things that, that I wanna dig into here ’cause one, yeah, recruitment is sometimes a dirty word. 

[00:01:34] Holly: Oh, absolutely. On the food chain, we’re low. 

[00:01:37] Ben: Yeah. The other is, uh, working in the hospitality industry uh, it certainly obviously was non-existent during COVID. But then to come out of it and go, “Oh, yeah, I’ll tell you what, I’ll do recruitment in hospitality, that’s on its knees cause that’s what I know.” 

[00:01:51] Holly: Yeah, and it’s on its knees.  

[00:01:54] Ben: Yeah, and is struggling still to this day. It- 

[00:01:56] Holly: Yes, in parts. In parts, and when I… 

[00:02:00] Ben: W- we can get to that. You correct me on that. 

[00:02:03] Holly: I will. I will. And I think my dad said to me, “If you can make £1 in a global pandemic, you can make money any other time.”

[00:02:07] Ben: That’s great. 

[00:02:08] Holly: And I thought, “A pound it is.” 

[00:02:10] Ben: I think we should put that on a T-shirt and sell it for more than a pound. 

[00:02:13] Holly: That’s great. And, and I, and I thought, he’s right. He said, “If you can make any profit coming out of a global pandemic, you know, you’ve got it nailed.” And I, you know, that first year was tough, and I was doing the standard, um, fee per placement recruitment.

So, you know, you come to me, I charge you 10, 12%, you know, for that, of that annual salary. And a couple of clients didn’t pay. A couple of clients, uh, you know, said, “Oh, I got that candidate. They applied through Caterer.” They didn’t, did they? And I had no backup. 

[00:02:54] Ben: St- is that then… It, it… Let, let’s clean up the dirty word first of recruitment, because it is blinking useful in, in a lot of terms. 

[00:03:00] Holly: Uh, it’s, it’s, it’s a necessity, right? Because, h- h- you know, i- if you are, if you run a business and you need people, especially if you run a business that’s quite niche, you need someone who has a network of other niche people. And those recruiters who headhunt, they’ve spent years, years developing those friendships, those relationships, placing people in one business.

That person says, “I’ve done five years, I now want a new job.” Th- they trust those recruiters. It is categorically so important for businesses to use recruiters. And when I started Houx, which is spelled H-O-U-X, but it’s French for Holly. 

[00:03:39] Ben: Okay. 

[00:03:39] Holly: So which is … A friend of mine came up with the name, and I was like, “Love it.”

[00:03:42] Ben: Houx, H-O-U-X. Houx, like it. 

[00:03:44] Holly: Um, although it does get called hoax quite a lot, which … Anyway. And I … So I did this for a few months, maybe sort of six, seven months, and I thought, “I, I’m, I, I don’t have the capacity to fight these clients for money when I’ve done the work. How can I make this better for me and for the clients and for the candidates?”

[00:04:06] Ben: Let’s just go back a second. ‘Cause I, I definitely wanna hear that. Why does recruitment get a dirty name? 

[00:04:14] Holly: Ugh. I don’t know. I think people think we’re, you know, just in it for the money, right? Um, trust me, there are, there are recruiters who’ve made a lot of money. And there are lots of recruiters who, um, you know, I think they are very clear in charging what they charge because of the network that they have. What I think maybe business owners don’t like is being told how to recruit. 

[00:04:39] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:04:40] Holly: So I need a, an ops manager for whatever business. The recruiter will say, “Well, you need … Can I come in? Can I see the office? Can I do this?” I haven’t got time. How am I meant to sell your business for you, ’cause you don’t have time to recruit. 

[00:04:55] Ben: Yeah

[00:04:56] Holly: And do it effectively to get that candidate really excited about you? 

[00:05:01] Ben: I was talking to someone who was saying that your website as a business shouldn’t … It’s not there to attract clients, it’s there to attract talent or you know, do the same job 50/50. So I totally get where you, so, so how do we do recruitment? Let’s, let’s turn the question around. How do we do recruitment properly? 

[00:05:19] Holly: So I, I’ve worked … I- in my career, I’ve worked … I, I started off doing finance and accounting and worked with really, really big companies in FMCG in Hertfordshire. And some of the top people in the finance team got it.

They knew how important the agency I worked for back then, we partnered with them. And one particular very, very big, um, uh, supermarket only used my old, uh, agency that I worked for- Um, because the owner used to be an ACA-qualified accountant, right? So he knew everything and trained us to know everything.

You know, if you’ve got people coming out of audit, they’re ACA first-time passes, they’re the top of their accountancy qualification. We, we worked with ACA and CIMA, um, to get these people in and get them before they even hit the market, so we could then put them straight into said big, big uh, supermarket.

And it, it was a win-win. It was amazing. That’s why they’re worth their money. That’s why they’re worth their weight in gold. And I think that people think, um, that, uh, recruiters are, you know, wide boys and, you know, they’re gift of the gab. They have… I have to walk into a room to go and meet a, a c- a candidate, let’s say, in a pub.

[00:06:38] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:06:39] Holly: So I have to be bold enough to walk into a pub on my own, meet a random stranger, and sit down and ask them about their salary. You know? And you’ve gotta have a bit of temerity about you to do that. And in hospitality, you’ve got all these businesses relying on their general manager and their head chef to recruit.

Let them be a general manager. Let them run your business. Let them run your site. Let them cook, ’cause they’re a creative. And you’re asking people who, most chefs are so creative, and they’re not admin-based people. Recruitment is admin. Applications, CVs. Why are you asking these incredible, creative superstars to sit for four hours a day or five hours a week and go through cv’s, they’re not interested, and these businesses will not invest in either working with a r- recruiter or getting a recruitment team in because they think it’s a waste of money and it’s the best money you’ll ever spend.

[00:07:45] Ben: So you niched in the, to start off with, in, in finance, sorry, accountancy.  

[00:07:51] Holly: Well, yes, in accounting and finance, yeah. 

[00:07:52] Ben: The niche then came f- so the, the niche for the business now is where you then moved into catering. 

[00:08:00] Holly: So, so when I was in finance accountancy, I then, um, I then moved, um, to Australia, as you do.

[00:08:15] Ben: Of course. Why not?

[00:08:22] Holly: Because why not? Um, and I worked for a small independent out there, um, shout out to Ed and Tamar, they’re amazing. Um, and that journey changed my life, changed my life in every aspect. And when I came home, I c- I went in-house to Mothercare. Um, a friend of mine got me a job there.

Brilliant. And, but I couldn’t settle, so I went and lived in Kuwait. 

[00:08:29] Ben: Okay. 

[00:08:30] Holly: As you do. You know. And I worked for one of the biggest franchise businesses out there called Alshaya. So if you’ve ever been to Dubai, every Cheesecake Factory, every Starbucks, every Pizza Express, every H&M is owned by Alshaya, so they were across nine markets.

We had a recruitment team of 55 people across nine markets. In 2014 to ’15 when I was there, we hired 14,000 people. 

[00:08:56] Ben: So you’ve got a bit of experience at this uh, recruitment malarkey. 

[00:09:01] Holly: Just a bit, right. And so when I came back, I then got my job at Caprice Holdings and the Burley clubs.

And I looked after 18 sites, and these people who work, again, shout out to my old team, and some of them moved on now and gone to other wonderful restaurants. They’re, it’s in their DNA. 

[00:09:21] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:09:22] Holly: You know, the, the, the hospitality runs through their blood. You cut them, they bleed d- you know, hospitality. And we as a team, I had, I had a couple of assistants over the years.

It was only m- me and one other. It did go to three just before COVID, and then, um, obviously we all sort of left. Um, and I feel that they kind of got it. I should’ve had a bigger team for the volume we had. Um, and but we still had a recruitment team. There are still businesses out there that don’t have one person dedicated to recruitment, and that’s where I came in with Houx to say, “Let me be your in-house recruiter.

I’ll just sit at my house in Hatfield.” Near St Albans. Um, and, and I’ll do all your volume recruitment for one fixed fee. And they were like, “Sorry, what’s the catch?” There is no catch. I will sit on Indeed for eight hours a day, and I will get onto those candidates within an hour of them applying. I will screen them.

I’ll book them in. This week, I’ve put in 14 trials for one client already. 14 interviews in three days. 

[00:10:28] Ben: Wow. 

[00:10:28] Holly: That’s the volume I can do. But for some reason, some clients are like, “No, no, we’re good, thanks. We’re gonna let our general manager and our exec chef do it.” 

[00:10:37] Ben: So I’m gonna say from a business point of view not just within the, your, your niche,’cause obviously you’ve got experience with- within this recruitment, what are the mistakes that businesses make beyond this?  

[00:10:48] Holly: Oh, time, time to recruit. So a lot of businesses will do, uh, time to hire, you know, um, all these KPIs around recruitment, you know, time to…

And some businesses, they need it, I get it. You’re dealing with people, you know? How, how can you metric how long it takes to fill a role? You know, you’re not, you’re not selling mugs. You’re dealing with people who change their mind, who suddenly move the goalpost. They want more money. All of a sudden they’ve realized actually they’re not on a month’s notice, they’re on three months’ notice.

And when businesses go to recruit, it staggers me that… I had a friend recently who went for a, a, a, an operations manager, a GM, another GM role. He had to do six interviews. Six. And I said to him, “Why? Who are you meeting?” “I’ve got to meet this one, and then upper level, and then upper level.” And I said, “Why are they not trusting-” You hire these people in your business to make a decision, but yet the, the God has to make the over… Why? You’ve hired these people to run your business. Let them run it. And the, the processes, the time it takes, and most importantly, I’m a massive a- advocate for the candidate journey. Right? I don’t care whether you’re 16 or 66, right? If you want to work in hospitality, obviously that’s my industry at the moment, if you want to work in hospitality and you applied to one of my clients that I work with, you will get a response.

And whether that is a, “We thank so much for your time, however, not right now,” or, “Yes, please, I’d like to speak to you.” 

[00:12:31] Ben: So talk to me about, about the hospitality industry at the minute  ’cause we mentioned at the, at the top of the program. Whoa. I was… Hang on a minute. That’s a bit, uh, s- bit of a, bit of a dodgy ground, isn’t it at the moment? But it, it sounds like not if you’re placing- 

[00:12:44] Holly: Have you been to London on a weekend? And how busy is it? Yeah, it’s busy. I- and how many restaurants and people with- 

[00:12:50] Ben: There, there are a lot. Right. 

[00:12:55] Holly: And how many are busy when you walk past them? Right. So people have money to spend, they’re just being very particular where they spend it. Okay? And I think there is a… You know, you go, you walk around Mayfair, there is, you know, it’s that… Not to get all… There’s that financial gap, isn’t there? 

[00:13:12] Ben:  Yeah, yeah.. Of course.

[00:13:13] Holly: You’ve got the people that can eat in Mayfair- 

[00:13:14] Ben: Yeah … 

[00:13:15] Holly: breakfast, lunch, and dinner because they have the money. Um, I went to a restaurant, a very well-known restaurant last year for my 50th. I’ve been wanting to go for- 

[00:13:23] Ben: You’re never 50. 

[00:13:25] Holly: I am, yes. Ha. Thank you. 

[00:13:26] Ben: It’s all right. 

[00:13:26] Holly: You’re on my Christmas card list now. Um, and, uh, and I’ve wanted to go to this restaurant for a while, and my wonderful partner and my, one of my best friends and her husband, we sort of went together, and you stayed overnight and had a, a whole kit and caboodle.

And it was fine. 

[00:13:44] Ben: Oh, no. 

[00:13:46] Holly: Yeah. Mm. I was… Look, I had a really heavy cold, so I wasn’t feeling my most jazzy. Okay? Uh, you know, we sat in the, the bar. I asked them, ’cause I love a Hugo … right? Like an elderflower spritz, you know, whatever. “Do you have Hugo?” “No, we don’t have elderflower.” Huh? How can you not have a…

You’re a restaurant, and you’re a Michelin-starred restaurant. 

[00:14:09] Ben: Um, I d- r- Let’s go down this tangent, ’cause I lo- I love it. Did you, did you… So have you fed this back, and then you then now going “By the way, if you need recruitment”-

[00:14:19] Holly: I didn’t do the booking. 

[00:14:20] Ben: Right. 

[00:14:20] Holly: So part of me was like, I don’t really want to feed back to them when it wasn’t my booking.

And, and my, my friend and her husband loved it, so I felt a bit bad the next day saying that was below average for me. Um, and I think what it was, I was going in expecting just better, better than I’ve had before. And it was… ‘

[00:14:45] Ben: Cause when you get that service, is it… And it’s, essentially you’re recruiting people that give this service. When you get the good service that it, you, you’re blown away by it. 

[00:14:58] Holly: And you don’t forget them. 

[00:14:59] Ben: Have you, have you read, uh, or listened to if you’re  if that’s how you digest your books, um, I knew I was gonna forget that as soon as I went into it. Uh, um, Unreasonable Hospitality 

[00:15:12] Holly: No

[00:15:12] Ben: uh, by Will Guidara. It is you, for you- Okay … you should. so they … used to have the number one restaurant in the world, and it’s the journey of how they got there to it. And it was all of that. And one of the best stories in there is when, um, and he was managing the, managing the floor, and a family were talking about, uh, how they’d done, been here, done this.

They’d ticked every box- Yeah … in a wonderful weekend in New York, but the one thing that they hadn’t done was ha- have a proper hotdog stand hotdog. Right. So he legs it out the restaurant… buys the hotdog… takes it into the kitchen, gives it to the chef and says, “I don’t know what you’re gonna do with that, but make it look good” and then just presents it on the table. And they had, um, it’s a bit like, I think the Savoy do this as well, where the Savoy have got, their staff have got a, a certain amount of money a year that they can use to complement … to enhance and complement. I think the famous one on that one is the chambermaid that jumped on a, a, a jet, jumped on a 747 or whatever it was. Uh, booked herself a ticket to deliver someone’s laptop who left it behind. The, it, it’s that, that kind of stuff. 

[00:16:19] Holly: So then when I, when I worked for Caprice, there was a story, so, uh, I don’t know if you’ve ever eaten in J Sheekey restaurant? Right. Right. So oh, my God, the, the staff there and the general manager, Joel, incredible.

And so there’s a story, uh, that I found out when I was working there, that, um, a couple used to come in, um, and he was a, a star back in the day, right? And they were elderly, and they used to come and eat and sit at a particular table. And in J Sheekey, they have the pictures around of all stars from stage and screen from yesteryear up, up… I, I don’t know how-  

[00:16:51] Ben: ‘Cause it’s bang slap in theatreland. 

[00:16:52] Holly: Literally. And, you know, whoever’s at the theatre will come in after theatre to have dinner. You know? But.. I mean, there’s a, there’s an extra room out the back… so you’ll never know, they w- I, I was stood in the doorway one day, and Sienna Miller walked past me, and I was like, “Oh, who’s that?”

And the GM was like, “Sorry, you’re important, but she…” I was like, “Go, go, go, go. Off you go.” And, um, so this couple used to come in, and then he, he passed away, and so they moved his picture in the restaurant to the table, so whenever she came in, she would sit at the table with his picture at the ta- 

like on the wall. However, she thought the picture was there forever, but they just moved, so every time they saw her booking, they would move the picture back there. So and that, that kind of thing, you cannot put a price on. 

[00:17:39] Ben: You will love this book then. 

[00:17:40] Holly: Right. And, and so, and for me, when I went to this particular restaurant, my birthday was the Friday morning.

This was the Thursday night, and it was my, one of my best friend’s birthday that day. So I went off to the toilet to ask, ’cause we were having dessert, and I, and I thought, you know, just to… ’cause every restaurant will happy birthday, and put a candle in or whatever. And I walked up to the, to the waitress, and I said, um, “Do you have a candle?

‘Cause it’s my friend’s birthday today.” She went, “We don’t do candles.” Oh. Uh, uh, okay.

[00:18:09] Ben:  So hang on. Just to be clear, this is back to the other rest. This is your 50th birthday, not J. Sheekeys. 

[00:18:16] Holly: No, God, no, no. they’ll bring out balloons and- 

[00:18:17] Ben:  Yeah, yeah

[00:18:19] Holly: whole restaurant was sing, was singing for you. And I, I thought we’re in the, the business of people, and that particular restaurant is a destination restaurant, right? People will… You know, you’ve got Mr. and Mrs. Smith who once a year for their anniversary will come to London, stay in a hotel, and have a meal at, you know- 

[00:18:41] Ben: So is part of that then, uh, the fact that they, they’re just, they’re, they’re booked anyway, and they take their eye off the ball? But I guess they’re still getting Michelin stars. 

[00:18:52] Holly: Who knows? Who knows? And I think for me there are, there are times when you know as a business, um, you know, I’ve been to many restaurants, and the manager, whoever they may be, look like they’re having a rubbish day.

Now, you don’t know what’s going on in their life that day right? And or, and then the staff, then it ripples down. You know, the staff… I, I was in a pub in, um, Leicester Square yesterday. I had some friends over from Australia. We went to this, and I ordered some wine. This girl behind the bar could not have been more, “I don’t want to be here.”

Right? And I said, “Oh, do you do Malbec?” She went, “Nope.” Well, what red wine do you do? And then she went, “Merlot.” I said, “Oh, just Merlot?” “No.” You know, like, oh my God, give me something here. So I’m pulling out. 

[00:19:43] Ben: So do, uh, do you then approach these, these businesses afterwards? N- no. Why not? 

[00:19:48] Holly: Because you don’t know who the man, you don’t know who…Because again, I don’t know that she’s just had some terrible news… or, you know. And maybe not. Maybe she… And also, maybe her manager isn’t very good. And maybe they’re a bully. 

[00:20:02] Ben: So it’s the lack of the training or

[00:20:04] Holly: ex- And that’s exactly it. And I think, you know, controversially, do people really care about the decor?

Do they care about the squishy cushions and the… da, da, da, da, da? I don’t think they do. 

[00:20:18] Ben: It, it depends on what level you’re at again, doesn’t it? It depends on that, it, it’s that- 

[00:20:23] Holly: Sure. I mean, I- What- For me-  

[00:20:24] Ben: What you’re paying for it or what you’re expecting or

[00:20:27] Holly: Yeah, and, and like my friends yesterday, they said, “Oh, you know, we thought about going to a Michelin Star while we’re here in London,” ’cause they’re from Australia.

And, and, and they were like, “The cost.” And I said, “Sure. Right.” However- 

[00:20:40] Ben: Go and see how many pair of hands there are in the kitchen touching the food and stuff, and that, you understand where that comes from. 

[00:20:46] Holly: But Scott’s of Mayfair. 

[00:20:47] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:20:47] Holly: Right? Part of Caprice. I’m so brand loyal to Caprice. I really am. Because I love them. Scott’s of Mayfair, hands down for me, again, uh, different to J Sheekey, it’s a different offering, one of the best restaurants in the world. 

[00:21:00] Ben: Mm. 

[00:21:01] Holly: And it’s not Michelin Star. But everyone that eats at Scott’s knows. 

[00:21:06] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:21:07] Holly: You know? So it doesn’t need the Michelin Star to be known as one of the best restaurants out there.

And I, I don’t know, I just think that businesses are looking at, you know, yes, it’s tough out there. Train your people. Train your people well. Make them fall in love, and don’t rely on the floor manager who’s been there two years, n- you can tell they no longer wanna be there- 

[00:21:34] Ben: Yeah … 

[00:21:35] Holly: and let them train new people.

[00:21:36] Ben: I think that’s d- across every business, isn’t it? We, we-  

[00:21:39] Holly: Without a doubt. Without a doubt. We- And I think that’s why I then went into coaching as an official coach, not just- 

[00:21:50] Ben: Look at you segue- on my podcast. 

[00:21:52] Holly: I know, right? … 

[00:21:51] Ben: That’s brilliant. You should present one of these yourself. 

[00:21:55] Holly: Oh, that’s my dream one day.

[00:22:00] Ben:Uh, well, let- let’s, let’s make it happen for you in this very podcast studio. Um, so Holly, you started another, you started another business. 

[00:22:05] Holly: I did. I did. 

[00:22:06] Ben: Let’s move away from the catering for a moment. Um, and I guess part of that, uh, recruitment is coaching, right? 

[00:22:14] Holly: Absolutely. And the amount of, and if I may just for a minute, recently there’s been a lot- 

[00:22:18] Ben: What, ignore your segue and my segue? 

[00:22:22] Holly: Yeah, okay. Yes, if I could for a minute. Because there’s a lot of people that will have young people, and I don’t know how old your children are, who are looking for work.

And there seems to be in the news at the moment a lot of people that, you know, their kids can’t find work. And I don’t know about you, but I started working in my mum’s salon, she was a hairdresser, when I was 12. Only because she had no childcare, so I had to go to the salon. And then of course I had to earn my keep, as it were.

And I think, you know, paper rounds and working in shops and whatever, most of my friends worked in hospitality at some point, 14, 15. And obviously the law has changed, which I think is great in a lot of ways. Um, however, these 16-year-olds are… They can only work evenings and weekends if they’re 16, because they’re at college or school- Yeah … during the day. Now, at 16 they can’t drive, so how are they gonna get to and from work? You know, if they don’t have a bike or parents, you know, do whatever. Um, so there’s that. Um, a lot of local businesses, uh, big name ones, will have a centralized function, so you apply online and it goes to someone in Derby.

[00:23:26] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:23:26] Holly: Right? And someone in Derby has got to look at, right… It- they’ve taken away the recruitment fr- per site, and that I think has been the damage. Because if you let your general manager, like the kids can come in, drop a CV in, and you’ve got a stack of CVs and, you know, one of your waitresses goes, “I’m going back to uni.”

Great. Oh, oh, where are those people? Right? Ring ’em up. “Jack, it’s Terry from the whatever.” 

[00:23:54] Ben: Which is why those local independent businesses get such great staff, ’cause the- 

[00:23:58] Holly: Absolutely. However, sometimes the, the independent, um, my friend’s son had a something recently, went in for a trial, great, and he’s a cracking lad, right? Cracking lad. And we go into this site regularly, my friend and I- And it was a week later, and she said, “I’ve, he’s not heard anything.” I said, “Well, ask.” And she was like, “I don’t wanna be that parent.” And I said, “Of course. However, just, just say, ‘Is he gonna hear back?'” And the manager said, “Oh yeah, no, one of the other staff wanted more hours, so we’ve just given them more hours.”

[00:24:27] Ben: Just didn’t bother telling the young dude,- 

[00:24:28] Holly: Just didn’t bother …  

[00:24:29] Ben: give him a wink. 

[00:24:29] Holly: And we’ve stopped going in there as much now because of that. 

[00:24:34] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:24:35] Holly: Because it’s just a lackadaisical, “Yeah, doesn’t matter. It’s a 16-year-old boy, isn’t it?” Well, no, ’cause it’s, this is his first step. And so the coaching ca- comes from helping my, my friend’s kids, my nieces, my nephews, um, anyone.

You know, I still now have people, “Oh, so I wa- I wanna change jobs. So do you know anything?” Let’s have a chat. Let’s have a chat. And it all comes from, I just, I love people. I’m so nosy, and I want to know their stories. I want to know where they’re from, what got them to that point. But also, sometimes it’s just, it’s the, it’s the blind spots they have, isn’t it?

It’s the whole- Well, you know, a friend of mine said to me the other day, a, a, another person she knows is looking for a GM role in hospitality, and I said, “Tell him to put numbers on his labor costs, his, uh, food costs, his, you know…” Because they go, “Oh, oh, how many staff he’s got?” How many covers the current restaurant has, because the- you don’t see it on a, on a CV.

[00:25:41] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:25:41] Holly: I run a team, I do the, I know. I know what you do. Tell me about you. 

[00:25:46] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:25:47] Holly: Um, so yeah, that’s why I decided to go into coaching officially, um, but mostly to help men. 

[00:25:55] Ben: So we, okay, what a pivot this is. Uh, or, or maybe not. Maybe. Like, there’s… T- tell me. So, uh, you’ve… The, the second business is coaching men. You’ve gone through a whole qualification… an official qualification process for it.  

[00:26:11] Holly: Thank you. Yes, I have.Yes. 

[00:26:11] Ben: Um, t- t… Just, 

[00:26:13] Holly: yeah. Okay. So when I was at Caprice, um, you know, I was sitting, I would sit in the HR function, and obviously, there’s, that’s a, that’s quite a function to sit in, you know, when you’ve got 2,000 employees, ’cause the stuff that comes in daily. Um, and almost every hour, the door would open and someone would say, “Hols, have you got a minute?” And I’d go outside. And at the time, I used to smoke, so I’d go outside, have a fag with whoever, and talk about the issues at work, issues at home. And my, my manager at the time said, “I, I think you’re onto something here,” ’cause we know a lot more about what’s going on in the business from what they tell you.

And don’t get me wrong, I’d say to the person, “I’m gonna tell my boss this,” just so they, you know… Um, and she said, “You need to go into coaching, like an official…” I was, “Great.” So the business paid for me to do a qualification, and what I struggled with was it was a massive book full of modules, because that’s not how I learn.

[00:27:06] Ben: That’s not how a lot of people learn, is it? [00:27:06] 

Holly: I found out at the age of 40-something that’s not how I learn. Who knew? Ha. Which is the name of my company. Um, and I just… Yeah, I, I kept picking up this, this folder, putting it back down, because the fear of starting, because I didn’t know what I was doing, and it was during COVID, and no one could tell me.

Mm-hmm. And kept putting it aside, kept putting it aside, and then I, I got a coach in ’21, um, because… And it was something one of your previous podcasters said. It’s about the accountability. I think you said it. The accountability when you’re … when you’re a, a, a, um, business owner. You’ve worked forever having a boss, and then you go out on your own.

[00:27:48] Ben: Who’s gonna hold you to account? Yeah. 

[00:27:50] Holly: Right. Which is- And I think the accountability, and there’s also a- an element of we all need to be parented. I don’t care how old you are, you still want someone to go, “Ah, really?” 

[00:28:02] Ben: Don’t touch that. Don’t do it yet. 

[00:28:04] Holly: Don’t do that. Or just, just be better, you know, be a better human.

And right now everything’s all a bit, you know, people are angry a lot. And for me, I, I wanted to just be a coach anyway, and my coach said… So I worked with her for four or five years, and still work with her. And then last year she said, “I’m gonna do this qualification for neuro-linguistic programming, NLP, are you in?”

“Uh, yes, please.” Because it was in person- 

[00:28:37] Ben: Yeah … 

[00:28:38] Holly: teaching me as I went. And it was a really intense course, and day one I was like, “This is it.” 

[00:28:46] Ben: So when you started that course, did you know that your new niche was gonna be men? No. There’s a soundbite for the podcast. 

[00:28:54] Holly: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, no, I didn’t. I didn’t know at all, because I assumed it would be women in hospitality, ’cause that’s, that’s what I know, right? I’m a woman and I work in hospitality. However, women are really good at self-care. Women will ring a girlfriend, “God, I need a glass of wine. Are you free tonight?” You know, “Can we go for a dog walk? I’m joining a yoga class. Do you wanna come?” You know, prosecco- 

[00:29:20] Ben: Yeah

[00:29:21] Holly: bottomless brunch. We’re good at that. Go for a massage. We know what we need because we’ve been listening to our body and our mind since we were 11 or 12, right? That’s what we do. Men, not so much. 

[00:29:32] Ben: I knew there was gonna be a point in this podcast where I felt like I was being told off. And I think it’s just arrived.

[00:29:39] Holly: Sorry. But men, men are brilliant at keeping going, and then you get to a point where something has to change. And I think a lot of men, not all, a lot of men get to a certain age and, you know, like I sort of said to you earlier, w- wife, partnership, marriage is great. The kids are g- getting older and f- you know, give them roots and wings.

They can come and go. You know, you may see your mates three times a year on a stag do or a golfing weekend, but the in between- Who looks after you? 

[00:30:16] Ben: Yeah 

[00:30:16] Holly: Who sort of check- And your wife will check in, or your partner will check in and say, “Everything all…” “Yeah, yeah, fine.” 

[00:30:21] Ben: So were you seeing, uh, this in, uh, people, people around you, guys that you knew had, and, and- 

[00:30:29] Holly: Yeah. And, and also, I think the men I grew up with. So my mum was one of 10, and so I had a lot of u- Yeah, yeah, I’ve got a lot of cousins. Yeah, lots… A big family. And these incredible men in my life as I was growing up were strong, funny, funny, funny, funny men- 

[00:30:47] Ben: Yeah … 

[00:30:48] Holly: but angry, angry men. And their upbringing probably wasn’t the greatest.

They had nowhere to put it. So there was a lot of, they could go from naught to 1,000 in 2.2 seconds, for anything, you know? Um, and don’t get me wrong, NLP is not therapy. A coach is not a therapist, you know. I like to think therapy is the, um, is the why… coaching is the how. So, you know, why, why did this happen?

Why am I here? Yeah. How can I get out of this? How can I move forwards? 

[00:31:22] Ben: So it, it strikes me that this may not be the most easiest of businesses to market. 

[00:31:29] Holly: You think? Hmm. Because men don’t want to put their hand up and say, “Oh, that sounds a bit like…” So I reached out to, uh, two people I know recently to say, “Look, I’m doing this.

Do you wanna, you know, get on board? ‘Cause I think that’d be brilliant.” Both of them came back and said, “Oh, my God, yeah, but not right now ’cause life’s gone mad.” That’s the time you need it. 

[00:31:50] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:31:51] Holly: And I can’t go back to them and say, “Well, that’s the time you need it,” because they’ll think I’m just trying to sell them something.

[00:31:57] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:31:58] Holly: And it’s kind of get out of your own way, get some help, and the end result is life-changing. Life-changing. I wouldn’t be the person and have the business I have had I not had my coach. W- without a doubt. And when I started having a coach, a lot of people said, “What do you need a coach for?” And I was like, “I just want a little bit of guidance.”

You know, I’m, I’m a cracking procrastinator. You know, I could get gold medal- 

[00:32:29] Ben: Well, you’re in good company there. 

[00:32:30] Holly: Right. 

[00:32:31] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:32:32] Holly: But my coach has a, has told me why I do that. Now I understand why I do that. 

[00:32:36] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:32:36] Holly: And I just think that everyone needs an outlet- And I, I think that this particular cohort of humans, shall we say, um, if I can get them…

Because what also would have happened is that a lot of men are being, are, are… They have behaviors and patterns that they were taught from a young age, teenage years, that they still bring in today. It no longer serves you when you’re mid-40s, early 50s, and it’s to try and un- unpick those patterns. 

[00:33:12] Ben: If there’s guys, blokes, men out there listening … what, and they’re like, “Okay, maybe. This might- … M- may- maybe this is me. I might be able … to admit that”… what, and they, they come to you for you to work with them … what, what should they, what do they expect? 

[00:33:29] Holly: So first of all, I, I do a discovery call, because they may be needing therapy, and I don’t want to be…I’m not a therapist, I’m, I’m categoric about that. And, but I will say, “You know, how are you feeling now? What, what’s going on? How’s…” You know, and kind of go onto the sections of work life, you know, whatever. And there’ll be a something there that I will hear, and that’s the thread I’ll pull on. “Oh, so you said…”

Yeah, “Oh, yeah, actually, that’s the bit.” And then we work. And it’s a six-month program, you know. It’s every other week for three months, and then once a month for three months, because- 

[00:34:05] Ben: Okay, interesting. So it’s a cy- cyclical thought. Absolutely. Okay.  

[00:34:08] Holly: But I want the first three months to be, let’s get the building blocks in, get out of your own way, let’s put some things in place.

And then the second half is, I’m gonna let you put this into play, but I’m gonna check in with you every week, and then once a month we have a call. 

[00:34:22] Ben: So the results are, at the end of those six months… um, you used the word anger. So less angry, or just a bit more comfortable with themselves… or, um- 

[00:34:37] Holly: Just I think there’s m- more clarity. 

[00:34:38] Ben: Okay. 

[00:34:39] Holly: There’s more, there’s more being able to forgive yourself- 

[00:34:46] Ben: Yeah … 

[00:34:46] Holly: for, for things that are out of your control, um, to be able to, um, not react at that thing that keeps happening like that, you know? When people say, “Oh, that person, you know, doesn’t like me,” d- d- they, they probably don’t really know you, you know.

You’re projecting your stuff on … you know. We know all this. And it’s a really big thing that a couple of clients, I’ve said to them before, “You know, you think so and so thinks that of you. They don’t care.” Like honestly, people don’t care like you think they do. And I… That has been… I’m a recovering people pleaser.

It’s still a work in progress. Um, but it’s changed my life, being able to say no, and then not explaining why. 

[00:35:38] Ben: Yeah, and it… that’s in, in personal life and in, and in business- a- and in business particularly… it’s the important to say no to stuff.  

[00:35:47] Holly: A client said to me once, “Can you, uh, reduce your fees?”

And I said, “No.” And there was probably about 40 seconds of silence, and I’m sitting on the phone, my toes are curling. I wanted to fill the gap. Ugh. But I had this big, you know, Post-it Note said, “Do not talk.” Don’t, yeah. Yeah, don’t talk. And then he said, “Well, it was worth the ask, wasn’t it?” “Was it?” And then, and that is far more powerful than saying, “No, because da, da, da, da” 

[00:36:19] Ben: Yeah, yeah. No, it’s- It’s a- It’s a negotiation tactic … it’s a, it’s a,

[00:36:22] Holly: It’s a full sentence. No is a full sentence. And learning that, phew, has blown my head. And now if people say, “Oh, do you want to go?” “No, thank you.” “Why not?” “Because I don’t want to.” How they respond to that is none of your business. That’s on them. If you tell someone that you’re not going to that party or you’re not going, and they go, “Oh, yeah, but you said…”

Okay You don’t have to respond, and that has been the biggest… My mom used to tell me in my 20s that I could have a row in an empty room. I was, I, I was trying to prove something. I was, I was this big, you know, personality, you know? And it, it was a lot, and now I don’t need to be that, and I don’t need to…

This is the big learning. I don’t always need to be right. 

[00:37:21] Ben: It’s like the helicopter view, isn’t it? It’s… That’s probably the biggest thing I’ve learned from, from various coaches that I’ve worked with over the years- 

[00:37:29] Holly: And I love that you have worked with them. And, and what have you found?

 

[00:37:34] Ben: Well, that, that helicopter view of just being able to zoom out- Mm … and look at stuff from a, you know, from a business point of view or from a personal point of view. And also with those conver- We had a… I can’t remember who we were talking with about, but about having difficult conversations. Um, and actually for me, sometimes you just don’t need to have…It’s, it’s similar to you. You don’t have to have that difficult conversation if it’s… If you’re at peace with things. 

[00:38:04] Holly: And also, but if you’re having a difficult conversation with an employee who is angry or s- there’s a reason behind that. 

[00:38:12] Ben: And actually, that, yeah, that would be the caveat for me. This is in personal life, maybe conversation or with friendship groups or something like that. If there is a difficult conversation to be had… in a work- It, in my mind, it has to be had, ’cause it can’t keep going on, particularly if you’re working in a, in a small team or- 

[00:38:29] Holly: And, and also-  

[00:38:30] Ben: Well, actually in any team, but-  

[00:38:31] Holly: Yeah,and, and my dad once said to me, when I worked in Kuwait, my director at the time was an out-and-out bully.

[00:38:37] Ben: Mm. 

[00:38:37] Holly: An awful human being. She was a- awful. And I remember my dad telling me, I was on a call to him, and I was crying my eyes out because I was so unhappy, and he said, “Just because someone has been promoted to a manager doesn’t make them a good one.” Right? And I was like… He said, “She has faults. Work around them.”

And in the end, I left because of her. Um, I did a year. Everyone else in Kuwait was amazing. What a brilliant coun- country. Um, and, and now I look back and think she was in so much pain. There was clearly trauma … in her life. But she, rather than go get help, she criticized everyone that came near her, and I forgive her now, you know, because you have to.

Um, and I just thought to myself that there’s so many managers who shouldn’t manage people, but they’ve been promoted to do that. And rather than being, um, being taught the right way to handle people- Um, they’re bringing their learned behaviors and their patterns into their team, and then that’s where…

And for me, my coaching, you know, I hope that in the future I’m able to work with businesses and leadership te- I don’t want to be called a executive coach or the… Because for me, the return on investment is get m- invest in your, your leadership team to be better people. 

[00:40:06] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:40:07] Holly: Your return on investment will be triple o- once they’re happier in themselves. Whatever the business is, if you invest in your people and for them to be just better humans. And, you know, m- men and women, if they are better humans, they’re gonna be better, you know, moms, dads, partners, parents, daughters, siblings, friends, and that’s, that’s where I want to work.

And I, and I hope I can make some real change. I, I genuinely believe what I’m gonna do is gonna change lives. 

[00:40:42] Ben: I get the impression that if, uh, you set that as a target and as a goal- … I’m pretty sure you’ll reach it. 

[00:40:47] Holly: I really hope so, because I, I know that it’s, you know, we all bumble through life going, “Well, this is what,” um, what’s the…

If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got. 

[00:40:58] Ben: Yeah. 

[00:40:59] Holly: And something’s gotta change, because, you know, there are a certain rate in men that they, you know, take matters into their own hands. Th- there’s got to be an outlet for that. 

[00:41:13] Ben: We need to wrap this up. Um, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation.

[00:41:14] Holly: Me too. Me too. 

[00:41:19] Ben: We could go on. Um, but if there are guys out there that are listening and thinking, “Oh, do you know what? I just… Maybe it is worth a look at-“… what’s the best step?” Just a quick, a conversation with you to start with? 

[00:41:27] Holly: Absolutely, yes. And, and, and the, um, the website is Hounew, H-O-U-X-K-N-E-W, uh, .co.uk. Um, and there’s a book a discovery call button. And you can just book that in, goes into my calendar. We can have a, you know, half an hour chat. And it- it’s, it’s just taking that first step, isn’t it? And it’s not for everyone, but I think it will be for everyone once they get over themselves and get brave and just, just do it.

[00:41:56] Ben: What a brilliant place to leave it. Holly, I’ve really enjoyed this. Thanks for coming. 

[00:42:02] Holly: Thanks ever so much.

[00:42:03] Ben: Thanks for watching this week’s episode of Berko and Beyond. If you’d like to be a guest on the show, then drop us an email, podcast@berkoandbeyond.com. And don’t forget to like and subscribe wherever you watch or listen to your podcasts.

We’ll see you next week.