Why Local Podcasts Build Customer Loyalty with Azim Shah – Ep 05

Storytelling is really important.

With the advent of AI and that being pushed so much and it growing more and more and more and more people using it, there's a concern that you're sort of losing that human connection.

Podcasting, you get to know the hosts, you're with them for extended period of time, get to know their personalities and their quirks, and you feel more connected, and people want that connection.

Hello and welcome to Burko and Beyond, the local business podcast for Burkhamsted and the surrounding area.

I'm Ben Baldwin, your host, and on the show this week, it's a little bit of self promotion, if we're honest.

Azeem Shah, who runs the studio here that we record this very podcast in, joins me on the chair opposite.

Let's dive in.

Welcome to Burkham Beyond.

Azim Shah, welcome to Burko and Beyond.

Hello, Ben.

And welcome to Berkhampstead, we should say as well, because you've just set up your business here in Berkhamster, one part of your business.

Full disclosure, there's a bit of self promotion going on in this episode today, right?

Just a little bit, yeah.

So Azeem runs Red Branch Studios, which is indeed this very studio here, which this podcast is recording, which is a partnership with my business, Chuffed Productions.

So this is our studio and office, and we share the studio and unfortunately part of the office now as well, with Zeem and Red Branch.

So this episode could go basically anywhere today.

Yes, it can.

Well, firstly, first off, any good podcast, I got you a gift.

Oh, okay.

You should be giving me a gift because I'm the guest, but that's okay.

Here, I'd like to present you with some Nespresso coffee bars.

Not sponsored.

Excellent.

Because for those.

Yes, there is background to this.

You've drunk all my coffee and now you're replacing it at last.

Thank you.

For months, put that with the machine.

Thank you very much indeed.

You're very welcome.

Welcome to the show again.

Talk to us about podcasting then, which seems weird to say when I've got a podcast.

So obviously some of these questions I'm asking, I'll know the answer to.

But how did all this come about?

How did coming to Berco and opening Red Branch Studios start?

So my background's in broadcast and, you know, as you know, I'm a freelancer for a long time, and then I set up my own company and you kindly gave me a lot of good business advice, which is that's your one compliment I'm going to give you today.

But no, you've been very kind, you've been very good.

And then doing the freelancing, I sort of used a few different podcasting studios.

You know, I got asked to a few podcasts by clients.

So, you know, we booked spaces and things.

And to be honest, there's a lot of, there was a lot of variety with the podcasting within the podcasting space and they varied in quality.

And then I sort of thought, you know what, we can sort of give this a go.

There's a market there and in the area in Hertfordshire, there's not much podcasting wise, there's no sort of studio spaces.

And I'm sure, you know, and there was definitely a gap there to be filled.

So I sort of, you know, approached yourself as, you know, and said, you know, I think you're starting this thing up.

And you kindly said, I've got a space.

Yeah.

From a business point of view, it's interesting because people would think two video people who own video production companies surely aren't going to want to be in the same building together and doing stuff.

But that's often not how it works in video production.

We've talked about it on the podcast before.

I niche in a certain area, you niche in a certain area.

And at the time, neither of us were doing podcasts, so it just actually made quite a lot of sense.

And you, I mean, I think the thing I said to you was, don't build it and they will come.

Because we kind of did that here and they didn't or they not as much as we thought.

So actually the studio space wasn't.

Was getting as much use as we wanted out of it.

So it made total sense for us for you to use it as a test bed for a podcast studio.

Yeah.

And it's been the perfect sort of testing ground, which has been great.

And also, and further than that, you know, it's, it's gaining speed and picking up momentum because the demand's there.

That's the whole point.

And going back to your point about collaboration like that, it's really, really important.

You know, I, I've maintained that since I started out years ago in the industry.

I say that to people now, you know, collaboration is really important and it doesn't have to be some kind of battle all the time between two people, you know, and you taught me that very well.

You know, I approached you or you could have turned around to me and gone, oh, no, nothing, mate, no chance.

Video.

This, this is my town.

Forget it, sling your hook, sling your hook.

But you didn't and you were quite open to, you know, the conversation.

You helped me, you know, you sort of helped guide me through the initial stage of starting a business.

And you're someone I trust and trust is really important in this game, in most of the business game really.

I think you can build a lot with that.

And so this space is like a testament to that.

And I mean, look, you know, we've built old studio and we have people coming in and creating content is brilliant.

I mean I just wanted to start my own podcast.

So it was a bit of a no brainer really.

It was.

But actually this podcast was almost an afterthought from when we, we talked about it because I was like, well hang on, if we're going to do that, why don't we do a podcast?

And you know, as you know, my, my background is TV presenting years ago.

So then behind the camera, then B2B video production.

And actually for me this is a nice way for me to sort of stretch my presenters legs again, which is a phrase I seem to have made up.

You say it a lot.

Yeah, but it started to stick.

Right, but why would it when I'm sat down?

But anyway, I digress.

So we've talked about podcasts, you and I, quite a lot obviously and that I think that kind of falls into two categories.

There are businesses that are making podcasts, there are individuals that are making podcasts, and then also there's going to be room in the studio for TikTok shop and for live streaming as well.

For live streaming town halls and that kind of stuff if you don't want to do them on your own premises.

But why is that demand for podcasts there?

Why, why are podcasts so popular?

So nowadays, as, as you're aware, and I'm sure most people are aware, podcasting has become a massive thing like globally.

I mean I think there's like 600 global listeners or something around that.

600 Global listeners.

There's 600.

Sorry, let me start again.

Do you want to get your notes out?

Yeah, I do want to get my notes out.

Actually we're not editing any of this.

A bit out by the way.

That's okay.

That massive long pause that we edited out from me earlier when I was.

That's going out.

This is staying in.

Freddie editor, by the way, sat in the background.

I'm not cutting any of this out.

Yeah, he's like, this is gold.

This is golden.

Watch this, watch this.

So globally there's 600 million.

600 Million.

600 Million listeners.

Yeah, globally, £1.4 billion plus is being generated by podcasts per year.

Yeah, per year in the industry.

So that's, that's pretty big numbers really.

And is that generation come from mainly sponsorship, presumably?

Yeah, quite a lot of it will be through sponsorships and then advertising deals as well.

You know, not just, like I say, there are podcast sponsors, but then remember around that, around episodes, around, you know, production houses, product placement.

Yeah, that kind of stuff.

But it's worth, you know, it's worth a lot.

And so people are engaging with the content a lot more.

And there's quite a lot you can do with a podcast if you're a business or if, you know, you're a content creator.

So the business side of things, you can help grow an audience.

And you know it, you can help grow an audience.

And it's your authority that's being displayed when you're on a podcast, whether you're.

A guest or not on this podcast.

It's not currently.

Some of us are authorities.

Yes.

Not all.

Yes.

Sorry, I was speaking for myself as the host.

But yeah, so the authority is one thing.

You know, your reach in terms of your client base and your audience.

You know, people are increasingly consuming more short form content.

Yes.

TikTok and Instagram Reels and stuff.

And intention sponsor shorter.

Now, look, even though that's true, I'm good.

I am the champion of long form content.

That's.

I've decided with my stretching my legs as a presenter, I'm now the champion of long form content.

Because, I mean, you are dead right.

There's lots of appetite for short term content out there, but there's also massive appetite for long form content in the podcast.

But you were going to get around saying that, weren't you?

Yeah, but that's.

But that's.

It took the words out of my mouth.

But that's true.

That's the thing.

And that's why you can grow a more loyal audience.

If someone's willing to listen to your podcast for half an hour, 40 minutes, you know, that's a dedicated person.

They're dedicated to that time listening to you talk about whatever topic you're talking about.

And with that comes loyalty.

And they also have time to get to know you and get to know your personality, you know, your quirks and whether or not you drink everyone's coffee or whatever.

And it's something that is important to people.

And now this is like slight Tangent.

But in this day and age, business aside, or, you know, consecration aside, AI is becoming more and more prevalent and it's picking at pace every day and automation is becoming a thing and there is demand definitely for more human based storytelling or human based content.

So what's your podcast going to be then?

Well, on the spot.

On the spot.

So I'm about to launch a podcast which will be about podcasters podcasting.

If you have a podcast, you can come on and talk about your podcast, or if you're a producer of a podcast, you can come on and it's essentially around that source of industry and we'll have, you know, special guests occasionally who have, you know, something interesting to talk about.

But there's not a lot of podcasts that talk about that sort of thing specifically.

I mean, people do guests on each other's podcasts.

So put in the however many billion it was aside.

Yeah, there are somewhere in the region of 600 million listeners to podcasts in, in the world, in the globe.

Obviously, you know, podcasts like this are not aimed at getting anywhere near that amount of viewers.

Not saying that there are, there is one podcast that all those people listen to.

But if people are out there thinking, oh, I want to start a podcast for my business, or I want to start a podcast for my hobby, or whatever it is, why should they?

And how do they go about it?

So nowadays storytelling is really important.

With the advent of AI and that being pushed so much and it growing more and more and more and more people using it, there's a concern from some people, as you're aware, we've talked about AI before, that you're sort of losing that human connection.

Whereas when you have a podcast, you listen to somebody for half an hour, 40 minutes, and you're with them, that's the long form content and short form, content wise, everyone's looking at that and attention spans are getting less and less.

There have been studies which say that, and with Instagram and TikTok and stuff, people are just like scrolling through reels and things.

Whereas podcasting, you get to know the host, you're with them for extended period of time.

You also get to know their personalities and their quirks and you feel more connected, like you and I having a conversation.

Now, this is more reflective of how we actually are rather than a sat down, formal Jeremy Paxman interview.

It's very, very different and people want that connection.

And so if you're a business, you're growing an audience and you're growing loyalty through your customer base.

And you're also showing authority and showing your knowledge by being on a podcast or hosting your own podcast in whatever area you are.

If you're a content creator or just someone with a story to tell, it's a way of getting your stories out there.

I mean, there is a project that I have an idea for in the pipeline which I'm not going to say too much about on here, but involves lots of tease.

It is.

It involves human storytelling, which I need to talk to you about, which is quite important.

But we could.

Well, listen, we could talk about it now.

That could be.

Well.

Or no, we can.

No, no, we can.

All right, let's talk about a minute.

We'll get gone then.

This is.

So this is what we were expecting.

No, no, this is.

It's quite an interesting angle.

And it was.

I've had it planned for a while with the video production side.

Okay.

But it's legacy content.

So you have your parents or grandparents and you sit down going with this.

Yep.

And you have an interview with them.

The thing is, every time I've mentioned this, you know, I've mentioned this to friends and, you know, in the pub and having a chat about it and, you know, a couple of other people, you know, Simon does marketing with me, I mentioned to her.

And the thing around it is family is important and we live in an age where you can capture everything.

Yes.

Yeah.

But it's not in a structured format and podcasting long form.

You can sit there and how many people have a sit down interview with their mum, dad, granddad, grandmother?

And I thought about it because a couple of years ago, a friend of mine lost his dad to cancer.

And I thought about offering to record him just as a, you know, I'll, you know, I could film something with his dad.

Literally two days later, his dad died.

And I was like, why did I not just do it?

Yeah, you know, I hadn't, I hadn't mentioned it to him yet, but I'd said to my wife, you know, I was thinking of doing this, and she was like, that's a really nice idea.

And then, you know, before that, we lost my wife's grandmother, who we were quite close to, and same again, I said I should record her.

And, you know, I regret not.

And that's like a very personal thing.

But it's not just me.

You know, hindsight is an amazing thing, but there is something around it and there are people who do it.

There's definitely something around it.

I think if I could.

As, you know, I lost my, my dad Five, five years, six years nearly now.

And.

But.

Or to Alzheimer's and Alzheimer's related.

And so really I. I lost him way before then.

And to have.

And there are recordings of him and there's stuff that we've got on phones and stuff like that.

And sometimes when it's, you know, when something's popped up on.

On your memories and it's been a live photo and actually you've got the audio and like there's his laugh on there or there's bits we've recorded at kids birthday parties and stuff like that because, you know, he had this most incredible laugh.

But he had so many stories to have.

Have that to look back on.

I think it'd be.

Be amazing.

And there's test cases for it and this and that sounds weird to say test cases.

There's case studies of it because I know production companies in the states that do it and they do it on a full, fully fledged all singing, all dancing.

We're talking $25,000 to, you know, your kind of legacy piece.

But this is like the.

I was gonna use the words entry level then, but that would be really unkind to it.

No, to be able to bring someone and sit them down in a studio like this and to have those conversations that can go in any direction, like.

Yeah, I think that's brilliant.

Yeah.

And I think it's something that you have to be a certain kind of person.

Like the legacy video thing.

That's where it started.

And it's something that hopefully I want to try and pursue one day, but I've got way too many other things.

Yeah.

So kind of, as I said to you before, maybe just do the podcast studio to start with and.

Yeah.

And then what happens?

Get on a podcast to promote your podcast studio and we end up talking about something entirely different.

Well, but this is the thing.

It's not.

This is like a.

This is a pipe dream.

It's my interviewing technique is what it is, mate.

I've managed to just get those.

Yeah, I've managed to pull.

I just saw that little thing and then I said, oh, I just took on that little string there and there we go.

So it's.

But yeah, the legacy video thing was something I looked at before, you know, when I started doing.

Well, when I said about my friend's dad and Becky's stuff.

So looking into it then I thought, is it a thing?

It is a thing.

As you mentioned, I spoke to a couple of companies in America.

I got in touch with them and was like, you know, just looking for some guidance and advice and.

And then since speaking to them, you know, and their productions vary from, like, quite small to massive.

Yeah, but I was like, well, it's something that I, you know, I think about for later.

But then doing this now and the human storytelling piece and the legacy piece, it's something that's, you know, I think would work quite nicely for people in this day and age.

Definitely.

I think so, you know, we talk going back to niches when that.

That's what those video production companies in the States, they literally.

That' they do.

Yeah.

That's what differentiates them.

Them and that I'm already.

I've just built the packages and while we're sat here.

But it's still all based around the podcast, A.

A podcast studio, but that's it.

And this is extension of what we do here, you know, and like I say, whether you're a business or whether you're a content creator or then families, you know, wanting to record content, you know, you're recording some meaningful content for yourself.

And the legacy thing is quite a worthwhile thing, I think.

Anyway.

So back to those people that are starting podcasts.

Yes.

What's the most difficult thing about a podcast?

I really should be asking myself this question.

Yeah, it's.

It's been episode five of hours.

I'll see what you think first.

I'll go afterwards.

I think it's underestimated how important planning is.

You have been in the game for a while and you know about video production, you know about processes.

You've got you at chuff to have so many processes in place and, you know, looking at you and how you do things.

Then also, you know, working on big productions myself and then also, you know, getting jobs myself now stuff I'm trying to implement processes being, you know, a bit smaller and bit.

Yeah.

A bit younger than you in my journey.

But that is really, really important.

I think when people come in to do the.

Do the podcast recording or, you know, content in general, but mainly the podcast side, you can come in and do it.

Absolutely 100.

You can come in, come in here, sit down, hit record, good to go, we'll sort you out.

Brilliant.

But if you want to make something that's actually good, you have to have it planned out.

You have to have a plan of, you know, where you're going with your format of your episode, you know, what points you're going to talk about, roughly when it doesn't have to be set in stone.

I mean, look at this.

I'm laughing because we've not done any of that for this episode.

It's all good.

It is good advice because.

Yes, but also we've gone off on.

Tangents, but also we are used to it.

Yeah, we know that.

And you've been in front of camera a lot.

I'm more used to being in front of camera now.

And I do public speaking in bits and pieces, so.

And I do public speaking in bits and pieces, so that makes a big difference.

You know, I'm not.

Sorry, you've just to point out you've just said that thinking that Fred's going to edit your.

Your fluff on the first mention of public speaking.

No, he's not.

He's not.

No.

I know he's gonna throw me under the verse.

I know where his car is.

But actually this, this, you can't miss it with all that stuff on the dashboard.

There's all these toys on the dashboard.

This is the point, actually, because this podcast episode will be somewhat edited, probably not a lot because it's more fun leaving the outtakes in as far as I'm concerned, particularly as most of them are yours.

But you can sit down and do a podcast.

You can sit down in the studio, hit record, take all the files and go away.

Yeah.

But we would always recommend is use the.

And purely from a business point of view is there's a great book and I've forgotten who's written it, but it'll go in the show notes.

Who not how.

Who not who, who not how.

So it's not.

It's one I've recommended to you before that obviously not read.

But it's not about doing it yourself.

There's a whole thing.

As a business owner, you can go right.

Or as a business.

How do we do this, how do we do that, how do we do.

Let's learn how to run a YouTube channel and let's learn how to do where to.

Or get someone else to do it.

And the video production is.

Is always a part like that.

It's like, well, can we just edit it ourselves?

Or that.

Actually, the classic one is if we just shoot some stuff on an iPhone, can you edit it for us?

And it's like, well, you.

I'll let you answer.

If I just shoot some stuff on an iPhone, can you edit it for me?

No.

Why not, Azim?

Absolutely not.

It's a nightmare.

And also it won't look right.

And also you haven't logged the footage properly.

And also it looks terrible.

And also you probably filmed it terribly.

And also it's going to take Me ages to go through all your terrible footage.

And yeah, it's all those things, as we both know.

And yeah, on a serious note, it is down to the experience of knowing what to shoot, how to frame a shot, what shots match with each other, how to get audio.

Right.

Because video is basically 60 audio, if not more.

But that's the thing.

People will tolerate poor video and we'll look very fortunate in here with our setup to have, you know, nice cameras and it looks really, really nice.

But people will tolerate poor video, they will not tolerate poor audio because if you can't hear somebody, they will switch off, especially in this kind of situation.

So if you're recording stuff yourself on a phone, half the time the audio is terrible.

And I've had people come to me and being like, why's my.

Why is the sound so bad?

Because you've recorded it on your phone, there's no need.

Anyway, point being was you can sit down here in this studio, you know, back to the self promotion.

Yes.

Red Brand Studios and the podcasting service.

You can come down, sit in here, hit record.

You'll leave people to it.

They can film the thing, take it away and do it.

But by far the better idea is a package where you come in, sit down, then you edit it, give them the whole thing complete, then they can go off and work out how to put it on YouTube, the podcast platforms themselves.

Or you could probably offer advice on that.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

Well, that's it.

Like doing a all encompass package sort of made sense.

Yeah.

Because of that very reason, you know, it's all well and good, people coming in and recording and then going off and you know, having it edited.

But as I found with some people, you know, then they give it somebody who can't, maybe not can't, who is not as confident editor or experienced an editor, and then they get a product which isn't as good as they would like back.

Yeah.

Whereas we, you know, from video production backgrounds and as I said, you know, from a broadcasting background, I have like such a high standard of quality that I want things to be up here all the time consistently.

So when you come in here and if you have a package with us and you record an episode fully with us and we edit it for you and we do an introduction for you and all that, you know, you're getting something solid at the end of it because as you mentioned earlier, it's better to trust things to people who know what they're doing.

And I'm learning that with business like you, you have Shown me that, to be honest.

All right, stop that now.

I'm not giving you loads of advice.

Me a bit.

Don't want people coming to you for free advice.

No, definitely not Ben at Chuff Video.

Anyway, thanks for that.

It's a plug.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

I've totally lost my train of thought now.

You can edit this bit out, though, Fred.

Oh, yes, I got it.

You were going to ask me.

I was the same question back.

Given that I've just launched a podcast, you're going to ask me what was the most difficult thing about launching a podcast.

So, Ben, what was the most difficult thing about you launching a podcast?

Well, first of all, that's really interesting question and thanks for asking it.

I think consistency and cadence.

And that is.

We're.

We're on episode.

Your episode five that we're filming today.

Thank you.

No, thank you.

And it is basically like anything else in business.

It's habits and it's habit stacking.

And from our point of view, as a production company, we know schedules, but then all of a sudden you.

You're doing the same thing.

And we've committed to doing one a week.

And we started off publishing on a Tuesday, so we published two on the first, because all the advice is launched with at least two or three episodes.

So then the viewers have got time and listeners have got time to effectively listen to two or three in a row to get into it and get a feel for it.

And then you go for your cadence, for which I've decided once a week, purely from the point of view, because if I know if I do it less than that, it'll fall by the wayside, where if I've said, right, and I've said it to a few people, I've said it to a couple of business mentors of mine as well.

They're going to hold me to account to it.

You're going to hold me to account to it.

So it's that consistency and the cadence.

And then.

Actually, we've just sat down where you heard the call.

Me and Emma were just going.

Actually, we've bumped the episodes now to a Wednesday because it gives us a bit of breathing space because we want to record our episodes on a Friday most of the time and record.

I can do three in a day without my mind being completely boggled.

Well, I think I can.

We'll see.

That's another interesting point, actually, because like I said, the consistency is key, but doing less is sometimes more.

You are an experienced presenter.

You've, you know, you presented a lot and you, you know, you speak in front of people quite a lot.

You know, you're, You're.

You have the stamina, as it were.

You used to do four hours of live television a night with no script.

Yes, exactly.

So you were.

You are very much used to that kind of thing.

But generally speaking, it's a lot to do more than two in one go.

Yeah.

So I'd recommend, you know, breaking it up.

You know, doing two.

And you're exactly right.

That's how you build an audience and that's how you get people into it.

Like the first two episodes at once and then, you know, then the third.

But if.

When you're recording, my suggestion would be to, you know, record two and then have a break.

That also brings it.

That brings in other complications is the challenge of going, right, hang on a minute.

So I'm filming three.

What order are they gonna go out?

Are we gonna.

So we could easily make it slightly.

Easily make it easier by not mentioning episode numbers or anything like that, because then you could change them around and put them in any order.

So that might be something we decide to change later on.

And we'll only do.

We'll only number the episode in the introduction.

Because the introductions, if you haven't noticed, are filmed separately.

And you've earned the delusion.

Well, I think I've ruined that illusion, definitely.

As for me, I'm sorry about that.

I know I've been in here.

But we're about to swap seats and record another.

Record another episode, by the way.

Can't wait for that.

So there is that, I think.

But once you get into that, as we are now getting into that cadence and going, right, hang on a minute.

That's what we're doing.

And it just becomes regular.

And you're like, well, every other Friday or every three Fridays, it's going to be for us, we're recording three episodes of the podcast, then we've got them.

Because we're not making any money out of this podcast at the moment.

So for us, it's about just keeping, Keeping going and keeping consistent, but it not taking up all our time with us getting all arty farty with it, getting the crayons out as we like to do as creatives and video production and, oh, not quite happy with that shot.

And people won't notice as much, but it still looks great because of the way it's been.

It started well, what is the phrase?

You'll probably have to correct me.

I'm probably going to butcher it.

But it's don't make perfect the enemy of good.

Oh, I don't know that one.

So basically, if you're aiming for perfection, you're not going to make any progress.

Whereas if it's really good, yeah, it's still great.

And you're making progress by doing it.

So you can aim for it to be perfect, brilliant.

But if it's not perfect, it's not the end of the world, because you are still moving forward in what you're doing.

This being a local business podcast, we should have.

We should perhaps write them on the wall, all these kind of things.

So it's like all these.

All these slogans about, you know, the mantras.

Yeah, all those mantras.

That's new on me.

Well, we'll start a list.

Every day is a school day, isn't it?

Every day is a school day.

I knew I'd add value to this.

So what about.

Absolutely, yeah.

And yeah, long, long may that continue.

But education's a good point, isn't it?

Because we've talked about business, we've talked about people just, you know, talking about their hobbies.

And I think for a podcast for people that, like you said, that human connection just.

I've started one because I'm curious.

And the business has been in Berkhamstead, actually for six years at the moment.

But there was a breakover Covid we were here before then as well.

And actually I thought to myself, I just sometimes come in and out and I don't know lots of businesses or lots of other people, and there's loads of interesting people around here.

I thought this is the easiest way to meet them, actually, is just invite them into the studio for a chat.

Yeah.

And it's great and it builds community.

That's the thing.

And that's in places like this, like Berkhamstead and, you know, other places in the area, St. Albans and places like that, you know, community is really, really important.

And that's the thing that differentiates us in this space.

That's one of the positive things.

And people have commented on it.

You know, people have come to Burko to record their podcast and they've been like, oh, Birkinstood's really nice, isn't it?

And I was like, what were we expecting?

It's not East London, no offense to East London, but, you know, I mean, it's a really, really town.

And people go into Central London to record podcasts in these studios and it's really busy and then, you know, you're rushed to get there.

And here it's you come in it's really nice.

You have those local businesses, you know coffee shops and places to eat and things like that.

You know everything you need is here.

Yeah and it's just really, really nice and it's nice to have that community feel and that's what doing you know your podcast is like perfect for.

Cool.

Well we will of course put all the details in the show notes of how to contact you people to come and have a little look around the studio.

They can come and have a sit and try it out but for now I will finish on another business mantra.

I think this podcast is done which is better than perfect.

Thanks for watching this week's episode of Berco and Beyond.

If you'd like to be a guest on the show then drop us an email podcasturcoandbeyond.com and don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you watch or listen to your podcasts.

We'll see you next week.

It.